X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com ([209.85.220.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5902672 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:25:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id fb1so3104855pad.25 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:25:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QWWyHhwmDU+g/KYwLPQZW35PrwtKIHD/xzu4HTaw/D0=; b=o0mHPi8lfCngYSufy5mNlxA/QYirI6JxVWj+lhvOwENwAeijlH8ktpYQsSW5YIOYCb QEiO3u+xRRA/0CmmRVgFxyfZ9b5W3F+SVZl49GV5h6Koa1sD7K/K4z/VLMOfDYS3zrZw 6HSeGNxPw9UA8sICld9V0PNHCg+lOMZUsep9t4kq3padQm/nE3Whh2f4rx3Tj+6AQ5Am eBEp3E9Wmbr56mz2CvmyiNw8fBPbSl+lHY6spBk72dUu8UGU6kuRu95e20ggPRCACqIE FBhTzHwD5p4F4rTIWo/pf5XAtMT+6DIK4CjEfIerh1YXgSxo37fgK1/d9rmQ1vbTfUlL hJnw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.242.9 with SMTP id wm9mr25006595pbc.7.1353788701210; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.67.4.132 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:25:00 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / Mark's 20B Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600 From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33c664a2f70704cf437ea6 --047d7b33c664a2f70704cf437ea6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Joe, If you decide to go ahead and use the slide throttle, I would consider welding the front and back covers to the spacer, leaving one end removable for assembly. This would greatly reduce the leak factor. If I were to build another slide throttle, I would really try to incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a friction interface. Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of the slide. I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balancing the rotors at idle. Then figure out some way to safety the throttle cable to the slide. On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttle is superior is during WOT operations. Anything less and the slide creates a lot of turbulence in the intake runners. That's a non-scientific personal observation of mine, FWIW. Mark On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, wrote: > Mark, > > > > Thanks for the reply. I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle built by > Mazda Custom Parts Inc. by Doc Custer. I have my injectors near the > bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it looks > like a redesign is in order. I emailed the company that makes V carb or > Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inquired about > using 2 of those for a P Port. No one has used one on a rotary that they > know of. I have to rebuild the engine and that is going to cost a lot so > redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish now. I have got > zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P Port. I think you have > the closest to optimum working P Port in aircraft use. I was thinking of a > gasket between the spacer and the side plates which would more provide room > for the teflon. I also saw that Tracy is building a EC-4 for test stands > and airboats. What if you used 2 of them one for each rotor? Appreciate > any input. > > > > Joe Berki > > Limo EZ > > 13b P Port > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle > wrote: > > Joe, > > > > > It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. It used a > solid 3/8" teflon slider. When I initially built it I didn't allow for > expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the tighter the > slider was in the cavity. He now recommends thin sheets of teflon bonded > to an aluminum slider. I didn't try that, so I don't know if it corrected > the problem. I modified my slide throttle by opening the tolerances up > until it would work when hot. > > > > But then it also leaked. Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle > before the slide. If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates and > spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. Not a good situation. This > could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough idle. > > > > Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual > rotors. So, precision is the word when drilling. My pieces were built > using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer > plates. I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up the > welds. But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. I tried > fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the results. > > > > And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the throttle > cable. The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or setscrew to > keep the throttle cable from backing out. Mine never did, but the thought > was always in the back of my mind. It was also very difficult to screw the > throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation and removal of > the slide throttle. I feel that part of the design could use a bit more > engineering to address this issue. > > > > Those are some of the issues that I've identified. I'm sure that most > could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel throttle > bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. So, I bought them and ended up using > them. They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which makes them > smooth as silk. They have a bung located downstream of the butterflies for > the primary injectors. So, no more fuel puddling. The only real problem > with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth. But I was able to > work around that. If it wasn't a p-port engine I could have gone with one > larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engines run better with the > butterflies near the ports. These fit the bill nicely. And it idles much > better now. > > > > Mark > > > > P.S. Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes installed > on the fuel injectors. Best I can tell, this is a problem for the 3-rotor > engines running the EC-2 controllers. Once I added those the idle improved > a lot. > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, wrote: > > >> >> Mark, >> >> >> >> Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source? Can >> you expand on problems with the slide throttle? How thick was the slide? >> Thanks for any help >> >> >> >> Joe Berki >> >> Limo EZ >> >> >> >> 13b P Port >> >> >> > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle < >> msteitle@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > Doug, >> >> > > >> That's true. It is almost like an entirely different engine, especially >> the MAP readings. I guess you could compare it to installing a radical cam >> in your family driver. It would drastically alter the driving >> characteristics. Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port >> engines. It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. Hopefully, >> the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. >> >> > > >> It also required a whole new intake. I tried the slide throttle, but >> there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using three >> 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. It has worked out great. It especially >> improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the primary >> injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. I had some fuel >> pooling issues with having them located upstream. The snowmobile tb's also >> operate much smoother than the slide throttle. At idle, vacuum sucks the >> slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force, making it >> difficult to work the throttle. >> > > >> > > And... it now burns more fuel than before. DUH! I could throttle >> back and fly slower, but who wants to do that??? >> >> > > >> Mark S. >> >> > > >> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, >> > wrote: >> > > >>> >>> ** >>> Mark Steitle wrote: >>> >>> >"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end over >>> the original side-port 20b motor". >>> >>> That is outstanding Mark! I'd almost bet that your PP modification was >>> one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbers vs. a turbo / >>> supercharger add on? Probably wouldn't seem like it as you were going >>> through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :) >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > > > > --047d7b33c664a2f70704cf437ea6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe,=A0

If you decide to go ahead and use the slide thro= ttle, I would consider welding the front and back covers to the spacer, lea= ving one end removable for assembly. =A0This would greatly reduce the leak = factor.

If I were to build another slide throttle, I would real= ly try to incorporate roller bearings for the slide to run on rather than a= friction interface. =A0Then integrate primary injector bungs downstream of= the slide. =A0I would also add an air bleed in order to facilitate balanci= ng the rotors at idle. =A0Then figure out some way to safety the throttle c= able to the slide. =A0

On a side note, I think the only time the slide throttl= e is superior is during WOT operations. =A0Anything less and the slide crea= tes a lot of turbulence in the intake runners. =A0That's a non-scientif= ic personal observation of mine, FWIW.

Mark


On Sa= t, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM, <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:

Mark,

=A0

Thanks for the reply.=A0 I have the 3/8" teflon slide throttle buil= t by Mazda Custom Parts Inc.=A0 by Doc Custer.=A0 I have my injectors near = the bellmouths inside of a plenum but I think I will have puddling so it lo= oks like a redesign is in order.=A0 I emailed the company that makes V carb= or Vinjector used in the Sonnex VW engine and asked if anyone inquired abo= ut using 2 of those for a P Port.=A0 No one has used one on a rotary that t= hey know of.=A0 I have to rebuild the engine and that is going to cost a lo= t so redesigning the fuel system might be better to accomplish now.=A0 I ha= ve got zero room to accomodate any of the needs for the P Port.=A0 I think = you have the closest to optimum working P Port in aircraft use.=A0 I was th= inking of a gasket between the spacer and the side plates which would more = provide room for the teflon.=A0=A0I also saw that Tracy is building a EC-4 = for test stands and airboats. What if you used 2 of them one for each rotor= ?=A0 Appreciate any input.

=A0

=A0Joe Berki

Limo EZ

13b P Port


On Saturday, November 24, 2012 = 12:25 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe,=A0


>
It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. =A0It used= a solid 3/8" teflon slider. =A0When I initially built it I didn't= allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the = tighter the slider was in the cavity. =A0He now recommends thin sheets of t= eflon bonded to an aluminum slider. =A0I didn't try that, so I don'= t know if it corrected the problem. =A0I modified my slide throttle by open= ing the tolerances up until it would work when hot. =A0

>
But then it also leaked. =A0Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle= before the slide. =A0If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates= and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. =A0Not a good situation= . =A0This could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough= idle.=A0

>
Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual r= otors. =A0So, precision is the word when drilling. =A0My pieces were built = using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer pla= tes. =A0I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up = the welds. =A0But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. =A0= I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the= results.

>
And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the t= hrottle cable. =A0The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or set= screw to keep the throttle cable from backing out. =A0Mine never did, but t= he thought was always in the back of my mind. =A0It was also very difficult= to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation = and removal of the slide throttle. =A0I feel that part of the design could = use a bit more engineering to address this issue.

>
Those are some of the issues that I've identified. =A0I'm sure= that most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barre= l throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. =A0So, I bought them and ended = up using them. =A0They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which mak= es them smooth as silk. =A0They have a bung located downstream of the butte= rflies for the primary injectors. =A0So, no more fuel puddling. =A0The only= real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth. =A0B= ut I was able to work around that. =A0If it wasn't a p-port engine I co= uld have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engin= es run better with the butterflies near the ports. =A0These fit the bill ni= cely. =A0And it idles much better now. =A0

>
Mark

>
P.S. =A0Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes i= nstalled on the fuel injectors. =A0Best I can tell, this is a problem for t= he 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers. =A0Once I added those the = idle improved a lot.

>
>=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, <jsk= mberki@windstream.net> wrote:
>=20

Mark,

=A0

Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source?=A0 Ca= n you expand on problems with the slide throttle?=A0 How thick was the slid= e?=A0 Thanks for any help

=A0

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

=A0

13b P Port


> On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> > Doug,


> >
That's true. =A0It is almost like an entirely different engine, es= pecially the MAP readings. =A0I guess you could compare it to installing a = radical cam in your family driver. =A0It would drastically alter the drivin= g characteristics. =A0Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port= engines. =A0It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. =A0Hopef= ully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. =A0=A0= =20

> >
It also required a whole new intake. =A0I tried the slide throttle, bu= t there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using= three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. =A0It has worked out great. =A0It e= specially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the pri= mary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. =A0I had some fue= l pooling issues with having them located upstream. =A0The snowmobile tb= 9;s also operate much smoother than the slide throttle. =A0At idle, vacuum = sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force,= making it difficult to work the throttle.
> >
> > And... it now burns more fuel than before. =A0DUH! = =A0I could throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to do that???

> >
Mark S.

> >=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, <DLOMHEIM@a= ol.com> wrote:
> >=20
Mark Steitle wrote:
=A0
>"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top e= nd over the original side-port 20b motor".
=A0
That is outstanding Mark!=A0=A0I'd almost bet that your PP modific= ation was one of the=A0"easiest"=A0ways to gain those=A0hp number= s vs. a turbo / supercharger add on?=A0 Probably=A0wouldn't seem like i= t as=A0you were going through the=A0"tweaking" phase, etc... :)
=A0
Doug=A0
=A0

> >
>

>


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