X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com ([209.85.220.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5902590 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:26:17 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id fb1so3081469pad.25 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:25:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QMtp1KWpTr1m1U8BoyIzwLBa1/lwgLVzpIktbmFzprc=; b=VSrJYF6HYsadE9hCwcWza/kiV/OnN4s8b6zZKbTDvAInU4a2FKFI+zQ1sLCgbHQTzP N3Vc8BG8s0/e3QUQdyTdxkFwgAKapPMJ9sFR9DaEKQB/yGLXayIAMO4A2inVfO0DjVmD 9PqaPvDI+zz7Ei2c8O46d12mVrsSi8JLvNnBOe3OX7sIpEi1aYN6CWSPqxBUyjOebLNJ xzEcnNqc/Nq0/UeZKaiFvLQV0YaNq1vh2ZTUkyKuOI3Nhqcw47Du32E2XvJQKwv+7Wth 5uFPYaCCJopPHLgmFFfWUm7PNXip0iMXVdav+NhPfFwpyxO8KMjJGmFiTHFUDhi4FYk6 iD8Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.82.68 with SMTP id g4mr20413789pay.9.1353781543398; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.67.4.132 with HTTP; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:25:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:25:43 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Defined Autoworks parts site / Mark's 20B Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:59:55 -0600 From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d042f945aff6d0404cf41d308 --f46d042f945aff6d0404cf41d308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Joe, It was the original design of PL, expanded for the 3-rotor. It used a solid 3/8" teflon slider. When I initially built it I didn't allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the hotter things got the tighter the slider was in the cavity. He now recommends thin sheets of teflon bonded to an aluminum slider. I didn't try that, so I don't know if it corrected the problem. I modified my slide throttle by opening the tolerances up until it would work when hot. But then it also leaked. Like I said earlier, the fuel would puddle before the slide. If there wasn't a perfect seal between the plates and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. Not a good situation. This could have been part of the problem I was experiencing with rough idle. Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing the individual rotors. So, precision is the word when drilling. My pieces were built using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes to the outer plates. I may have gotten things a little "off" when cleaning up the welds. But I could feel one rotor cutting out during ground ops. I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never happy with the results. And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of retaining the throttle cable. The design as shown did not provide for a lock nut or setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out. Mine never did, but the thought was always in the back of my mind. It was also very difficult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly for installation and removal of the slide throttle. I feel that part of the design could use a bit more engineering to address this issue. Those are some of the issues that I've identified. I'm sure that most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet little one-barrel throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. So, I bought them and ended up using them. They have ball bearings for the throttle shaft, which makes them smooth as silk. They have a bung located downstream of the butterflies for the primary injectors. So, no more fuel puddling. The only real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a bell-mouth. But I was able to work around that. If it wasn't a p-port engine I could have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, but p-port engines run better with the butterflies near the ports. These fit the bill nicely. And it idles much better now. Mark P.S. Part of the idling problem was that I didn't have diodes installed on the fuel injectors. Best I can tell, this is a problem for the 3-rotor engines running the EC-2 controllers. Once I added those the idle improved a lot. On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, wrote: > Mark, > > > > Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source? Can > you expand on problems with the slide throttle? How thick was the slide? > Thanks for any help > > > > Joe Berki > > Limo EZ > > > > 13b P Port > > > On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle > wrote: > > Doug, > > > > That's true. It is almost like an entirely different engine, especially > the MAP readings. I guess you could compare it to installing a radical cam > in your family driver. It would drastically alter the driving > characteristics. Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port > engines. It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. Hopefully, > the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. > > > > It also required a whole new intake. I tried the slide throttle, but > there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using three > 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. It has worked out great. It especially > improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the primary > injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. I had some fuel > pooling issues with having them located upstream. The snowmobile tb's also > operate much smoother than the slide throttle. At idle, vacuum sucks the > slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force, making it > difficult to work the throttle. > > > > And... it now burns more fuel than before. DUH! I could throttle back > and fly slower, but who wants to do that??? > > > > Mark S. > > > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, wrote: > > >> >> ** >> Mark Steitle wrote: >> >> >"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top end over the >> original side-port 20b motor". >> >> That is outstanding Mark! I'd almost bet that your PP modification was >> one of the "easiest" ways to gain those hp numbers vs. a turbo / >> supercharger add on? Probably wouldn't seem like it as you were going >> through the "tweaking" phase, etc... :) >> >> Doug >> >> > > > > > --f46d042f945aff6d0404cf41d308 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe,=A0

It was the original design of PL, expanded for t= he 3-rotor. =A0It used a solid 3/8" teflon slider. =A0When I initially= built it I didn't allow for expansion of the teflon slider and so the = hotter things got the tighter the slider was in the cavity. =A0He now recom= mends thin sheets of teflon bonded to an aluminum slider. =A0I didn't t= ry that, so I don't know if it corrected the problem. =A0I modified my = slide throttle by opening the tolerances up until it would work when hot. = =A0

But then it also leaked. =A0Like I said earlier, the fu= el would puddle before the slide. =A0If there wasn't a perfect seal bet= ween the plates and spacer, you'll get leaks onto the exhaust. =A0Not a= good situation. =A0This could have been part of the problem I was experien= cing with rough idle.=A0

Also, the slide throttle does not allow for balancing t= he individual rotors. =A0So, precision is the word when drilling. =A0My pie= ces were built using a Bridgeport, but then I had to weld the short tubes t= o the outer plates. =A0I may have gotten things a little "off" wh= en cleaning up the welds. =A0But I could feel one rotor cutting out during = ground ops. =A0I tried fine-tuning it with a small fine file, but was never= happy with the results.

And it didn't allow for a truly positive method of = retaining the throttle cable. =A0The design as shown did not provide for a = lock nut or setscrew to keep the throttle cable from backing out. =A0Mine n= ever did, but the thought was always in the back of my mind. =A0It was also= very difficult to screw the throttle shaft into and out of the assembly fo= r installation and removal of the slide throttle. =A0I feel that part of th= e design could use a bit more engineering to address this issue.

Those are some of the issues that I've identified. = =A0I'm sure that most could be overcome, but I ran across these sweet l= ittle one-barrel throttle bodies for approx. $100 on ebay. =A0So, I bought = them and ended up using them. =A0They have ball bearings for the throttle s= haft, which makes them smooth as silk. =A0They have a bung located downstre= am of the butterflies for the primary injectors. =A0So, no more fuel puddli= ng. =A0The only real problem with them was that the intake incorporated a b= ell-mouth. =A0But I was able to work around that. =A0If it wasn't a p-p= ort engine I could have gone with one larger TB before the intake plenum, b= ut p-port engines run better with the butterflies near the ports. =A0These = fit the bill nicely. =A0And it idles much better now. =A0

Mark

P.S. =A0Part of the idlin= g problem was that I didn't have diodes installed on the fuel injectors= . =A0Best I can tell, this is a problem for the 3-rotor engines running the= EC-2 controllers. =A0Once I added those the idle improved a lot.


On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, = <jskmberki@windstream.net> wrote:

Mark,

=A0

Do you have any info on the throttle bodies like brand and source?=A0 Ca= n you expand on problems with the slide throttle?=A0 How thick was the slid= e?=A0 Thanks for any help

=A0

Joe Berki

Limo EZ

=A0

13b P Port


On Saturday, November 24, 2012 7:36 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wro= te:
> Doug,


>
That's true. =A0It is almost like an entirely different engine, es= pecially the MAP readings. =A0I guess you could compare it to installing a = radical cam in your family driver. =A0It would drastically alter the drivin= g characteristics. =A0Tracy is working on a fix for the MAP issue on P-Port= engines. =A0It only hits two addresses between idle and 4500 rpm. =A0Hopef= ully, the fix will help it to run smoother through the transition. =A0=A0= =20

>
It also required a whole new intake. =A0I tried the slide throttle, bu= t there were some issues I didn't especially like, so I built one using= three 46mm snowmobile throttle bodies. =A0It has worked out great. =A0It e= specially improved the idle characteristics, probably due to having the pri= mary injectors located downstream of the throttle plates. =A0I had some fue= l pooling issues with having them located upstream. =A0The snowmobile tb= 9;s also operate much smoother than the slide throttle. =A0At idle, vacuum = sucks the slide against the downstream side plate with a significant force,= making it difficult to work the throttle.
>
> And... it now burns more fuel than before. =A0DUH! =A0I could= throttle back and fly slower, but who wants to do that???

>
Mark S.

>=20
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 3:43 AM, <DLOMHEIM@aol= .com> wrote:
>=20
Mark Steitle wrote:
=A0
>"...What I can say is that I picked up 20+ knots on the top e= nd over the original side-port 20b motor".
=A0
That is outstanding Mark!=A0=A0I'd almost bet that your PP modific= ation was one of the=A0"easiest"=A0ways to gain those=A0hp number= s vs. a turbo / supercharger add on?=A0 Probably=A0wouldn't seem like i= t as=A0you were going through the=A0"tweaking" phase, etc... :)
=A0
Doug=A0
=A0

>


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