X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTP id 5884937 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:34:51 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=OOOlLFmB c=1 sm=0 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:17 a=AHkS0RJitIMA:10 a=Vjigq0ffbrMA:10 a=05ChyHeVI94A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=n7yciS9ggtIA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=VZNwKjK2BSvqr1WPaIIA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=6dyKO12oPh5scz2l:21 a=tSJuOqa-NDCjWWRP:21 a=VGWAQ_N_sR3svEPFk5AA:9 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=hdtNyv15EZAA:10 a=I1Rks_BT01oA:10 a=YDfvKbr3wz0Tg3Gm:21 a=pB9UxasfCCDT7D4s:21 a=FRb1PKH66rRNdm2O:21 a=g3L/TDsr+eNLfIieSKfGkw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Authenticated-User: X-Originating-IP: 174.110.170.10 Received: from [174.110.170.10] ([174.110.170.10:64275] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 0E/94-21565-78CB7A05; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:34:16 +0000 Message-ID: <9EC8BE68CC8E47AE91203A93DB191E55@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis injectors Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:34:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01CDC4B7.73B0FA90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CDC4B7.73B0FA90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, Steve, now that we have the pulse duration at 6500 rpm of 9.2 * 0.8 = =3D 7.4 - I agree with your calculations. Good analysis as usual! Ed From: Steven W. Boese=20 Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis injectors Ed, I used 80% duty cycle as the injector open time at 6500 RPM since my = test stand could not achieve that RPM the way it was set up. The 80% is = often quoted as a conservative max duty cycle for reliable injector = operation. The period at 6500 RPM is 9.2 ms so 80% of that is 7.4 ms.=20 10.6gal/hr * 6500 RPM/ 5265 RPM * 7.4 ms/ 4.4ms =3D 22 gal/hr This estimate is conservative since the effect of the injector dead time = is to make the injector act like a larger one as the pulse width = increases. Thanks for looking at this. Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf = of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis injectors Hi Steve, I attempted to verify your math but believe I am missing a = crucial factor - injector opening time at 6500 rpm Check my math: 10.6 gal/hr =3D 10.6/60 =3D 0.17666 gal/second =3D 0.17666/1000 =3D = 0.00017666 gal/msec flow for all four injectors combined for an "average" of 0.00017666/4 =3D 0.000044166 gal/msec per single = injector Taking 0.000044166 * 4(injectors) =3D 0.00017666 gal/msec =3D = 0.00017666*1000 =3D 0.17666 gal/sec * 60 sec/1 hr =3D 10.596 gal/hr, so = that checks Now since there was no different opening times given for the injectors = at 6500 rpm, I have to assume the opening time was the same as at 5265 = rpm (4.4 msec - which is not likely to be correct). But, following this = assumption - then the increase for the flow at 6500 rpm is simply the = ratio of 6500/5265*10.6 gal/hr =3D 13.086 gph a bit short of the 20 = gph figure. =20 So , I strongly suspect the injector opening time would increase at the = higher rpm (it does on my rotary) which would account for the increased = flow - did you happen to measure the injector opening time at 6500 = rpm?. =20 Ed From: Steven W. Boese=20 Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 1:26 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis injectors Charlie, My Renesis engine on the test stand uses the same injectors that Richard = has. Today, I recorded some data that should indicate whether or not = these injectors might work for your application. At 23" MAP, fuel = pressure of 40 psi, and 5265 RPM, the fuel flow was 10.6 gal/hr and the = pulse width on all four injectors was 4.4 ms. From this data, it = appears that those injectors should support a fuel flow of slightly over = 20 gal/hr at 6500 RPM with an injector duty cycle of less than 80%. It = would be good if you (or anyone else) would independently check if my = calculation is reasonable. Steve =20 Hi Richard, The only info I could find on the green ones seems to indicate that they = are 230cc. I can't find numbers for the brown, but based on the model = number, they are probably slightly larger. I suspect, but don't actually = know, that I need 400+cc(normally aspirated Renesis). The yellows are = somewhere between 380 & 430 cc, depending on where you look & what = pressure they run at. Thanks for checking, & if it turns out that my research is wrong on the = flow figures, we'll need to talk further. :-) Charlie Charlie, are you still looking for injectors?=20 Would the ones in the picture of any help? They are out of a 2009 2nd Gen Renesis. The numbers are: green 827 12 , = 297500-1220 . Brown 827 08 , 297500-1230 . I can not interpret these number.=20 Richard Sohn N2071U No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5892 - Release Date: = 11/13/12 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5892 - Release Date: = 11/13/12 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CDC4B7.73B0FA90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok,  Steve, now that we have the pulse = duration at=20 6500 rpm of 9.2 * 0.8 =3D 7.4 - I agree with your = calculations. Good analysis=20 as usual!
 
Ed

From: Steven W. Boese
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:24 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis injectors

Ed,

 

I used 80% duty cycle as the injector open time at 6500 RPM since my = test=20 stand could not achieve that RPM the way it was set up. The 80% is = often=20 quoted as a conservative max duty cycle for reliable injector = operation. =20  The period at 6500 RPM is 9.2 ms so 80% of that is 7.4 = ms. 

 

10.6gal/hr * 6500 RPM/ 5265 RPM * 7.4 ms/ 4.4ms =3D 22 = gal/hr

 

This estimate is conservative since the effect of the injector dead = time is=20 to make the injector act like a larger one as the pulse width = increases.

 

Thanks for looking at this.

 

Steve

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]
Sent: = Saturday,=20 November 17, 2012 6:43 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis=20 injectors

Hi  Steve, I attempted to verify your math = but=20 believe I am missing a crucial factor - injector opening time at 6500=20 rpm
 
Check my math:
 
10.6 gal/hr =3D 10.6/60 =3D 0.17666 gal/second = =3D 0.17666/1000=20 =3D 0.00017666 gal/msec flow for all four injectors = combined
for an "average" of 0.00017666/4 =3D 0.000044166 = gal/msec=20 per single injector
 
Taking 0.000044166 * 4(injectors) =3D 0.00017666 = gal/msec =3D=20 0.00017666*1000 =3D 0.17666 gal/sec * 60 sec/1 hr =3D 10.596 gal/hr, so = that=20 checks
 
 
Now since there was no different opening times = given for=20 the injectors at 6500 rpm, I have to assume the opening = time was the=20 same as at 5265 rpm (4.4 msec - which is not likely to = be=20 correct).  But, following this assumption - then the increase = for the=20 flow at 6500 rpm is simply the ratio of   6500/5265*10.6 = gal/hr =3D=20 13.086 gph a bit short of the 20 gph figure. 
 
So , I strongly suspect the injector opening = time would=20 increase at the higher rpm (it does on my rotary) which would account = for the=20 increased flow  - did you happen to measure the injector opening = time at=20 6500 rpm?. 
 
Ed
 
From: Steven W. Boese =
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 1:26 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis injectors

Charlie,

 

My Renesis engine on the test stand uses = the same=20 injectors that Richard has.  Today, I recorded some data that = should=20 indicate whether or not these injectors might work for your=20 application.  At 23" MAP, fuel pressure of 40 = psi, and 5265 RPM,=20 the fuel flow was 10.6 gal/hr and the pulse width on all four injectors = was 4.4=20 ms.  From this data, it appears that those injectors should support = a fuel=20 flow of slightly over 20 gal/hr at 6500 RPM with an injector duty cycle = of less=20 than 80%.  It would be good if you (or anyone else) would = independently check if my calculation is reasonable.

 

Steve

 

 

Hi Richard,

The only info I could find on = the green=20 ones seems to indicate that they are 230cc. I can't find numbers for the = brown,=20 but based on the model by Text-Enhance"=20 href=3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59224.html?Langu= age=3D#"=20 target=3D_blank>number, they are probably = slightly larger. I=20 suspect, but don't actually know, that I need 400+cc(normally aspirated=20 Renesis). The yellows are somewhere between 380 & 430 cc, by Text-Enhance"=20 href=3D"http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/Message/59224.html?Langu= age=3D#"=20 target=3D_blank>depending on where you look & = what=20 pressure they run at.

Thanks for = checking, &=20 if it turns out that my research is wrong on the flow figures, we'll = need to=20 talk further. :-)

Charlie

Charlie,
are you still looking for injectors?
Would the ones in the picture of any = help?
They are out of a 2009 2nd Gen Renesis. The numbers = are: green=20 827 12 , 297500-1220 .
Brown 827 08 , 297500-1230 .
Richard = Sohn
N2071U

No virus found in this = message.
Checked by AVG=20 - www.avg.com
Version:=20 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5892 - Release Date:=20 11/13/12

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2793 / = Virus=20 Database: 2629/5892 - Release Date: 11/13/12

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