Return-Path: Received: from [65.54.169.184] (HELO hotmail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 2997790 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:01:43 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:01:39 -0800 Received: from 67.25.179.25 by bay3-dav154.bay3.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:01:39 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [67.25.179.25] X-Originating-Email: [lors01@msn.com] X-Sender: lors01@msn.com From: "Tracy Crook" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] My "new" engine Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:01:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MSN Explorer 7.02.0011.2700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01C3F649.3F96D180" Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2004 23:01:39.0549 (UTC) FILETIME=[2AC150D0:01C3F673] ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C3F649.3F96D180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dale, The best used engine I ever bought was a fire damaged engine that looked = just like you described. I'm still using it for development on my test s= tand. It was so good I didn't even bother to overhaul it. (but I would = before putting on a plane) The resistance you felt may have been due to c= arbon lock from a piece of carbon deposit falls off the rotor and gets ja= mmed. I doubt you did any damage to it if that was the case. Your questions about the lower manifold are covered in detail in the book= Forget the barrel valves in aircraft applications. There is no loss o= f "low end performance" that you will ever notice. Tracy Crook ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale Rogers Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 5:21 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] My "new" engine Hi All, Well, I got my "new" engine cleaned off, and I've begun to =20 disassemble it. I got a bit of a surprise after I washed off the =20 engine-degreaser softened layer of dirt. The engine had been in =20 a fire. Good thing I only paid $200. Still, it doesn't look =20 like the fire was very widespread or last very long. Most of the =20 damage is localized around the throttle body. One thing I missed =20 during my original inspection (besides the signs of a fire) was =20 that the secondary injectors had been removed and plastics plugs =20 inserted. I'd bet those add up to more than $100 (sigh). As you may be well aware, I'm a "greenie" about rotaries. =20 I've tried to soak up as much knowledge as possible from this =20 list and from forums like www.nopistons.com/forums/ , but now =20 that I actually have an engine to work on, I'm finding that =20 there are a lot of things about it that my Chilton manual simply =20 doesn't cover. So I have a lot of low-level questions. Perhaps =20 y'all can save me some time, and give me a pointer to a really =20 comprehensive manual on the 2G engine? Or maybe, everything I'll =20 actually need to know is in Tracy's book, and I can just throw =20 away anything I don't see mentioned? (Tracy, a money order will =20 be on it's way Thursday.) My immediate concerns are: (1) the engine turned over fairly =20 easily for 20-30* of arc just hand-on-belt-pulley; with a wrench =20 it went through ~two turns then started binding; guessing that I =20 had an apex seal stuck high, I backed it up, squirted WD-40 into =20 intake and exhaust and started turning forward again; after =20 several iterations of this, I succeeded in getting it to turn =20 indefinitely. Did I do any harm turning it backwards? (2) I can hear the "whuffs" of compression/release, as I turn =20 the eccentric shaft, even if I turn very slowly; but I can't =20 *see* anything through the exhaust port that *looks* like a seal. =20 I know two mm isn't much, but ... ?? (3) The cause of the engine fire; there is a small amount of soot =20 on the inside of the throttle body, but that could have been from =20 someone opening it after the fire had started. How can I play =20 detective here, before I've destroyed the evidence by disassembly /cleaning? (4) Extent of damage from fire - primary injectors are sooty, but =20 no obvious distortion; that's more than I can say about the =20 injector connectors, I don't think I can get them off without =20 destroying them. How likely is it that the injectors survived =20 the heat? Will a leak/flow test be adequate to vet them? =20 Same-same for the oil injectors; tubing to them is melted away, =20 except the last six or so inches above the OMP. Not immediate, but I'd like to start working out a solution: =20 the induction system - a six-port is going to be more of a =20 challenge than I originally thought. My original plan was to =20 keep the stock throttle body and maybe the manifold adapter(?) =20 that bolts to the housings. The adapter is far more complicated =20 than anything I've seen on you folks' sites. Then too, losing =20 the barrel valves looks like it will hurt low speed operation =20 (a lot?) _unless_ I can isolate them to a secondary throttle =20 channel. Trouble is, the stock throttle works just the opposite =20 of what I would have thought, from just looking at the picture - =20 the double bore is the primary. I know, I should only need low =20 speed while taxiing and descents; still, I don't want the engine =20 sputtering on the ramp. Over on the canard-aviators list there =20 was a long thread about "GIB" fear, and I was thinking that, once =20 I get things to the point where we can actually fly together, =20 having an engine sputtering just before takeoff would not do =20 much good for my spouse's confidence. All the alternative TBs I've heard mentioned (except, maybe, =20 using Webbers as TBs) are single control. I suppose I could =20 press an old AFB carburator into service as a TB only, but I =20 have a feeling that I'll be in for a lot of fun getting things =20 like a TPS to work with it. What have I overlooked here? BTW, my "complete" engine (full intake, and exhaust plenum - =20 no accessories, like starter or alternator) weighed 235 lbs. on =20 m 250 lb. shipping scale. Does that sound about right (or do =20 I need to get my scale recalibrated)? Thank you all, for the knowledge imparted already, Dale R. COZY MkIV-R #1254 >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive: http://lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01C3F649.3F96D180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dale,
=
The best used engine I ever bought was a fire damaged engine that l= ooked just like you described.  I'm still using it for development o= n my test stand.  It was so good I didn't even bother to overhaul it=   (but I would before putting on a plane) The resistance you f= elt may have been due to carbon lock from a piece of carbon deposit falls= off the rotor and gets jammed.  I doubt you did any damage to it if= that was the case.
 
Your questions about the= lower manifold are covered in detail in the book.  Forget the barre= l valves in aircraft applications.  There is no loss of "low end per= formance" that you will ever notice.
 
Tracy C= rook
 
----- Original Message -----=
From: Dale Rogers
Sent:<= /B> Wednesday, February 18, 2004 5:21 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] My "new" engine
 Hi All,

   Well, I got my "new" engine cleaned off, an= d I've begun to
disassemble it.  I got a bit of a surprise after= I washed off the
engine-degreaser softened layer of dirt.  The = engine had been in
a fire.  Good thing I only paid $200.  S= till, it doesn't look
like the fire was very widespread or last very = long.  Most of the
damage is localized around the throttle body.=   One thing I missed
during my original inspection (besides the = signs of a fire) was
that the secondary injectors had been removed an= d plastics plugs
inserted.  I'd bet those add up to more than $1= 00 (sigh).

   As you may be well aware, I'm a "greenie" = about rotaries. 
I've tried to soak up as much knowledge as poss= ible from this
list and from forums like www.nopistons.com/forums/ , = but now
that I actually have an engine to work on, I'm finding that <= BR>there are a lot of things about it that my Chilton manual simply
d= oesn't cover.  So I have a lot of low-level questions.  Perhaps=
y'all can save me some time, and give me a pointer to a really
c= omprehensive manual on the 2G engine?  Or maybe, everything I'll actually need to know is in Tracy's book, and I can just throw
away = anything I don't see mentioned?  (Tracy, a money order will
be o= n it's way Thursday.)

   My immediate concerns are: (1) = the engine turned over fairly
easily for 20-30* of arc just hand-on-b= elt-pulley; with a wrench
it went through ~two turns then started bin= ding; guessing that I
had an apex seal stuck high, I backed it up, sq= uirted WD-40 into
intake and exhaust and started turning forward agai= n; after
several iterations of this, I succeeded in getting it to tur= n
indefinitely.  Did I do any harm turning it backwards?

= (2) I can hear the "whuffs" of compression/release, as I turn
the ecc= entric shaft, even if I turn very slowly; but I can't
*see* anything = through the exhaust port that *looks* like a seal. 
I know two m= m isn't much, but ... ??

(3) The cause of the engine fire; there i= s a small amount of soot
on the inside of the throttle body, but that= could have been from
someone opening it after the fire had started.&= nbsp; How can I play
detective here, before I've destroyed the eviden= ce by disassembly
/cleaning?

(4) Extent of damage from fire - p= rimary injectors are sooty, but
no obvious distortion; that's more th= an I can say about the
injector connectors, I don't think I can get t= hem off without
destroying them.  How likely is it that the inje= ctors survived
the heat?  Will a leak/flow test be adequate to v= et them? 
Same-same for the oil injectors; tubing to them is mel= ted away,
except the last six or so inches above the OMP.


=    Not immediate, but I'd like to start working out a solution:=
the induction system - a six-port is going to be more of a
chall= enge than I originally thought.  My original plan was to
keep th= e stock throttle body and maybe the manifold adapter(?)
that bolts to= the housings.  The adapter is far more complicated
than anythin= g I've seen on you folks' sites.  Then too, losing
the barrel va= lves looks like it will hurt low speed operation
(a lot?) _unless_ I = can isolate them to a secondary throttle
channel.  Trouble is, t= he stock throttle works just the opposite
of what I would have though= t, from just looking at the picture -
the double bore is the primary.=   I know, I should only need low
speed while taxiing and descent= s; still, I don't want the engine
sputtering on the ramp.  Over = on the canard-aviators list there
was a long thread about "GIB" fear,= and I was thinking that, once
I get things to the point where we can= actually fly together,
having an engine sputtering just before takeo= ff would not do
much good for my spouse's confidence.

 &n= bsp; All the alternative TBs I've heard mentioned (except, maybe,
usi= ng Webbers as TBs) are single control.  I suppose I could
press = an old AFB carburator into service as a TB only, but I
have a feeling= that I'll be in for a lot of fun getting things
like a TPS to work w= ith it.  What have I overlooked here?

   BTW, my "c= omplete" engine (full intake, and exhaust plenum -
no accessories, li= ke starter or alternator) weighed 235 lbs. on
m 250 lb. shipping scal= e.  Does that sound about right (or do
I need to get my scale re= calibrated)?

Thank you all, for the knowledge imparted already,
Dale R.
COZY MkIV-R #1254



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