X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm29.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.92] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c2) with ESMTPS id 5850609 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:03:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.92; envelope-from=kjohnsondds@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.55] by nm29.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2012 15:03:21 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.232] by tm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2012 15:03:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1032.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2012 15:03:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 90390.66095.bm@omp1032.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 3088 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Oct 2012 15:03:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1351695801; bh=OgQMGjoROzaxABTpDTv2//52UIWMaDuQWxlhZWzHUgQ=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; 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Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:03:20 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,VHJhY3ksClNvcnJ5IHRvIGdldCBiYWNrIHRvIHlvdSBzbyBsYXRlLCBidXQgYW0gbm93IGp1c3QgZ2V0dGluZyBjYXVnaHQgdXAgb24gZW1haWxzLsKgIFdoZW4gSSBoYXZlIGZyZWUgdGltZSwgSSBhbSB1c3VhbGx5IG91dCBpbiBteSBnYXJhZ2Ugd29ya2luZyBvbiB0aGUgcGxhbmUuwqAgSWYgeW91IGhhdmUgbm90IHJlYWQgIkhvdyB0byBDb29sIFlvdXIgV2Fua2VsIiBieSBQYXVsIExhbWFyLCBJIHdvdWxkIHJlY29tbWVuZCBpdC7CoCBJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB3b3J0aCB5b3VyIHRpbWUuwqDCoAoKVGhlIHMBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.123.460 References: Message-ID: <1351695800.80086.YahooMailNeo@web125506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:03:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Kenneth Johnson Reply-To: Kenneth Johnson Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: flow path in conventional radiator To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="264668936-1439057261-1351695800=:80086" --264668936-1439057261-1351695800=:80086 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy,=0ASorry to get back to you so late, but am now just getting caught u= p on emails.=A0 When I have free time, I am usually out in my garage workin= g on the plane.=A0 If you have not read "How to Cool Your Wankel" by Paul L= amar, I would recommend it.=A0 It would be worth your time.=A0=A0=0A=0AThe = suggestion to flow air from the bottom up was not made by Paul, but was my = thoughts regarding the airplane I am building.=A0 The Zenith 801 is the fou= r passenger high wing STOL bush-type plane.=A0 It's top speed is 110 MPH.= =A0 It's primary purpose is getting in and out of short, grass strips.=A0 W= here engine cooling is most needed is on short runway take-off with high ob= stacles such as trees at the runway's end.=A0 Stall speed is about 40 MPH.= =A0 This just means there is very little air flowing through the cooling sy= stem on take-off.=A0=A0 The airplane is at a high angle of attack until obs= tacles are cleared.=A0 And again, at this high angle of attack, cooling flo= w is different and airspeed is slow.=0AHaving the cowl opening on the botto= m front of the cowl where air flows directly through the radiators and havi= ng outlets on the top sides of the cowl would allow air to flow best when i= t is most needed to cool the engine.=A0 At flat and level flying, the air w= ould still flow, but the higher speed would provide more cooling.=A0=A0=0A= =0AWhat makes this plane unique is it is not an RV where one is flying at 1= 70 knots and has a mile long runway.=A0=A0=A0=0A=0APlease read Paul's book = and give me your thoughts.=A0 Thanks for your comments.=A0 =0A=0A=0AKen Joh= nson=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Tracy =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re:= flow path in conventional radiator=0A =0A=0A=0AOn Oct 24, 2012, at 10:14 A= M, Kenneth Johnson wrote:=0A=0A> A more efficient d= esign would=A0 have intake air entering the bottom anterior of the the cowl= and to pass through the radiator.=A0 As this air is heated by the radiato= r it rises and should exit the top sides of the cowl.=A0 No one has done th= at because of the risk of engine oil on the windshield.=0A=0A=0AI haven't r= ead Paul's book but if this is an example of his suggestions, I wouldn't ha= ve much confidence in it.=A0 =0A=0ATwo basic rules of thumb for A/C cooling= systems are:=0A=0A1. Turning high speed air is hard to do and loss prone e= nergy wise.=0A=0A2.=A0 The pressure represented by convection of rising ho= t air is not significant=A0 and can safely be ignored for our purposes.=A0 = =0A=0ATracy=0A--=0AHomepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArchive and UnS= ub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --264668936-1439057261-1351695800=:80086 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
Sorry to get back to you so late, but am now just getti= ng caught up on emails.  When I have free time, I am usually out in my= garage working on the plane.  If you have not read "How to Cool Your = Wankel" by Paul Lamar, I would recommend it.  It would be worth your t= ime.  

The suggestion to flow air from the bottom up was not made by Paul, but was my= thoughts regarding the airplane I am building.  The Zenith 801 is the= four passenger high wing STOL bush-type plane.  It's top speed is 110= MPH.  It's primary purpose is getting in and out of short, grass stri= ps.  Where engine cooling is most needed is on short runway take-off w= ith high obstacles such as trees at the runway's end.  Stall speed is = about 40 MPH.  This just means there is very little air flowing throug= h the cooling system on take-off.   The airplane is at a high ang= le of attack until obstacles are cleared.  And again, at this high ang= le of attack, cooling flow is different and airspeed is slow.
<= div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: times new r= oman,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: norma= l;">Having the cowl opening on the bottom front of the cowl where air flows directly through the radiators and having outlets on the t= op sides of the cowl would allow air to flow best when it is most needed to= cool the engine.  At flat and level flying, the air would still flow,= but the higher speed would provide more cooling.  
<= div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: times new r= oman,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: norma= l;">
What makes this plane unique is it is= not an RV where one is flying at 170 knots and has a mile long runway.&nbs= p;  

Please re= ad Paul's book and give me your thoughts.  Thanks for your comments.&n= bsp;

Ken Johnson



<= div dir=3D"ltr">
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com&= gt;
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21 PM
<= b>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fl= ow path in conventional radiator

=0A

On Oct 2= 4, 2012, at 10:14 AM, Kenneth Johnson <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com&= gt; wrote:

> A more efficient design would  have intake air = entering the bottom anterior of the the cowl and to pass through the radiat= or.  As this air is heated by the radiator it rises and should exit t= he top sides of the cowl.  No one has done that because of the risk of= engine oil on the windshield.


I haven't read Paul's book but if= this is an example of his suggestions, I wouldn't have much confidence in = it. 

Two basic rules of thumb for A/C cooling systems are:
=
1. Turning high speed air is hard to do and loss prone energy wise.
=
2.  The pressure represented by convection of rising hot air is n= ot significant  and can safely be ignored for our purposes. 
Tracy
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  http://mail.lancair= online.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


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