X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm31-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.229.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with SMTP id 5697506 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:25:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.229.44; envelope-from=sarodude@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.48] by nm31.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2012 18:25:21 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.172] by tm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2012 18:25:21 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2012 18:25:21 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 505217.74641.bm@omp1028.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 2293 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Aug 2012 18:25:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1344363921; bh=fY+XRzwhlN6yYye5GgRkDkicpViu9tTFG+T1pUHS4d0=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=HmvCj2NvK9nzVsugdfAVnO/iX8ocwWingMi+tj3Xs00hPbcBPmzxbQLwl76DLvJrE38Y+NzQtIYyzZTbAt1ZJWiJ6ZT1TRVIdBRUpq7hzVzVgCS8w6L2fCto1srHrXTMYqodLa//Y4CN9b7+ceoP03SGRaCt1kWE9iYbRN6gWtE= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=SaQCQ79V8FnyFjEmbLGvHkRrq8HQYS9SFoOXDGfuw2bn7j4cJK09vh9DB8viLWD8FkyxbYj8oE28v2Ev0/ORUiLUwfarYw98UYKfhY9CQkIap0cFIDVHXRkUtg2cfFqyUqZ5j1SEsv4czOBKBxaPgokALZ2QPG1hjRNTeCVG2N8=; X-YMail-OSG: cz8J6pUVM1kp9xDnLy9VN8GegTzXKhhCTzxKpDxHi4s66vq QgHd4kWcb_QmDIf0JlVbWFG9gHctHQQhyMXeZDECnlomn1bkM8e1tgSJxM.m XZBW3AuR2szrQIFDxyE37pYG03wli89w2pgOLKBrif0iezPVwzl2fLewfFFt _0vbfi_wn6Lhu4UqjL75Q59K_brp_jC93crJBh44d9VkEsdHSkbVy1prlk3F tPWTdblYba8Ag5SgSZvzrsvlQSt.OdG6djD6rgErXvmNg.qGzaDDBi71Mgdn oCKBEnM9pdgJg.n1U2D3ifnAG9DA1RmJQ3nGE6Rz5aZ1p9KokoujpRrBYr3Y Wbohhk99QYuzyaqPuMteE2wVuZAeiSdk46zpXxtAvPGcf50Ad2TdL176sL10 zaUI3dIZlLjaZYoaP6ho.hSz9uBGH2Wu0ri5VHRJewmdFv_3ZOKCUTcIM06v azKd6gYJVS_MdZFLQATOlzbdAFwJf6TuF7svCvSyQEYSjoescibAT9gsp2HT 9Ci0hNUt41L1mWvMK_CBNsr8zm0REcp61obhghTNWdDbix_RUqnPfmEZxbl. IRHHE8cCIebNoP_BdNJTg9XpZFJ5OeoFgm8.4UOGijroOuEtQsbVmv5sJRDZ F1GKwGoHH24VygNGzaRFjDw5GNshXS0aexZCNphHrbcNxJz2drpRrGxhonyq uTyIEsJRAgsFH2GjGeAcpzBcvLEFeEMFxIvbmrrROd8rsN1x5f7zwjGcMob8 _.oSt6NTedwE- Received: from [12.31.202.50] by web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 11:25:21 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 References: Message-ID: <1344363921.94777.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Saro Marcarian Reply-To: Saro Marcarian Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-2038480821-1573296199-1344363921=:94777" ---2038480821-1573296199-1344363921=:94777 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok. =A0I can't speak to all automotive FI systems, but at least some have f= ull recirculating flow ALL THE TIME. =A0Here's the scenario as I understand= it in many setups:=0A=0ATank -> Pump (in tank) -> High Pressure Filter -> = High Pressure Fuel Rail / injectors -> pressure regulator (referenced to in= take manifold) -> low pressure return to tank=0A=0AIngition switch on means= fuel fuel pump on. =A0The pump is always pumping the max the engine will e= ver need - surely with some surplus pressure and volume. =A0The regulator s= pews back what in an automobile will usually be a gross excess of fuel.=0A= =0ARegardless of the power requirement of the right foot, the fuel pump nev= er knows the difference. =A0It's always pumping it's max. =A0I've gotten ki= nda fed up with the automotive industry and don't know if this (or a slight= variation) is the common setup anymore. =A0For example, I've seen some car= s where the pump comes on for a few seconds and if the engine doesn't fire,= shuts down. =A0But you get the general idea.=0A=0AAl's revelations of the = sloshing self-cleaning action are pretty awesome and telling. =A0Good thing= to know.=0A=0A-Saro=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "ARG= OLDMAN@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:09 AM=0ASubject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing=0A =0A=0AOf cours= e, Al,=0A=A0=0AI am missing the part where the hopped up autophile jumps on= the highway =0Awith his souped up car, steps on the small pedal and cruise= s at 75%power, with =0Ano letup for say-- 4 hours, to be followed by a simi= lar situation over and over =0Aagain.=0A=A0=0AThe flow for a 600HP engine w= ould be considered, only if it were run under =0Athe above circumstances.= =0A=A0=0AMost cars, unless long distance racers, many of which don't finish= (and one =0Awonders if they, indeed use these types of filters,) independe= nt of their =0Aincreased HP function at much much reduced HP and fuel burn = most of their lives =0A(thus the old saw about not using an automotive engi= ne for an airplane). =0AAircraft engines, or engines used on aircraft have = different thirst needs. Not, =0AIMNSHO noise, but possible reality.=0A=A0= =0AOf course the vehicles with the fuel filters "totally unnecessary to rem= ove" are not designed to have =0Athe longevity nor the fuel burn of our air= craft.=0A=A0=0AAssume the life of an aircraft to be 20 =0Ayears (although t= hey are considerably longer)=0AConsider an average fuel burn of =0A10GPH=0A= Consider flying 100H per =0Ayear=0AConsider average auto at 20 =0AMPG=0A=A0= =0AThe aircraft at 20 years will have =0Aconsumed 20,000 gal of the smelly = stuff.=0AA similar flow in the auto would equate =0Ato 400,000 miles.=0A=A0= =0AWhere the aircraft is still relatively =0A"new" it is only very rarely t= hat an auto makes that kind of mileage and is =0Atypically shredded long be= fore that. Is it possible that these =0Aself-crap-shedding filters have, fo= r aviation purposes, a limited life span, =0Awhich, since blind, can not be= evaluated, except at failure?=0A=A0=0AThe benefit of being able to look at= a =0Afilter element is the ability to take some recourse if problems pop u= p. =0AInability to inspect stops one from not knowing (although, for some, = there is =0Asolace in that). "If I can't see it, it must not be there."=0A= =A0=0AWhat comes to mind is the situation =0Awith Chris Barber in which, fo= r whatever reason chunks (sheets) of epoxy-stuff =0Awere flaking into his f= uel tanks. I don't know how Chris determined this, but =0Alets, for the sak= e of conversation, this situation was not observable through =0Athe filler = neck (perhaps happening in a baffled area removed-- there are at =0Aleast 1= or 2, can't remember, however, the fuel pickup is visually isolated from = =0Athe filler neck area, and the flakes plugged the filter due to their sha= pe and =0Asize, he, after solving his cooling problems might have had an en= gine failure at =0A50' on landing after a 5 hr cross country. Of course, wh= en he arrived back to =0ATerra Firma, short of the runway, hopefully in one= piece, the un -seeable filter =0Awould have "cleaned" itself, and the engi= ne failure would have been, probably, =0Arelegated to something else.=0ARic= h=0A=A0=0AIn a message dated 8/7/2012 10:24:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, = =0Aalwick@juno.com writes:=0A=A0=0A>Not = true in this modern age. 30 years ago would have been true. =0A>=A0=0A>The= y do take=A0high flow=A0into consideration. They design the systems to han= dle the extremes. When we do qualification testing we measure how close we= are to failure threshold. "Holy crap, if this guy has partially clogged f= ilter similar to ones we find on Kentucky cars 15 years old. AND he is run= ning at full throttle. AND he has replaced injectors with high flow ones..= ........no, he's still within the safety margin."=0A>=A0=0A>Have to admit,= I don't know the details of Mazda fuel flow thresholds. But I do know Jap= anese companies=A0are expert at design optimization. They do measure how w= ell sys will perform in unusual applications. We=A0have what's called a "n= oise array" and test how well sys handles unusual situations outside of ou= r control. So high flow injectors would be in the noise array. As would fu= el from "Bob's rusty tank". =0A>=A0=0A>Would flow for 600 hp engine be co= nsidered? No, not that extreme. =0A>=A0=0A>=A0=0A>Yes, I think a lot of people are not used to the concept of = a design so robust that failures can't occur. In the case of OEM fuel filt= ering, it's totally unnecessary to remove and inspect. If curious, use one= of those scopes to peer into tank. In this case, remove and inspect would= increase risk. I love the irony. =0A>=A0=0A>-al=0A>=A0=0A>-al=0A>----- Ori= ginal Message ----- =0A>>From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com =0A>>To: Rotary motors in = aircraft =0A>>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:39 AM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing=0A>>=0A>>Al,=0A>>=A0=0A>>= Of course, what is not taken into account by the auto guys is that the fue= l flow of an aircraft is significantly greater than that of a car and that= old planes are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pull over = to the side if the filter gets plugged totally or partially.=0A>>=A0=0A>>No= w if, as part of a conditional inspection, the filter/pump were removed in= spected and cleaned, I personally would feel much better about that instal= lation.=0A>>=A0=0A>>Rich=0A>>=A0=0A>>In a message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P= .M. Central Daylight Time, alwick@juno.com writes:=0A>>Dave says:=0A>>>>>=A0=0A>>>I mentioned this a couple year= s ago. One of the guys called Bull Sh__. Well, not really, but what he did= was most impressive. He went to local wrecking yard, bought two used coar= se filters. They reside in the fuel tank. I think he spent like $5 or so. = =0A>>>Then he puts it in bucket, no I think he has old aquarium. Attached a= pump to it. Then got some dirt and debris from yard and poured it on. As = I recall he could not get it to clog. But the self cleaning was obvious wh= en he added a little wave action and vibration to it. =0A>>>If you take th= is a little further, you can actually measure pump flow rate by timing how= long it takes to fill jug. You can then look at jug contents so see how f= ine it screens. You can add a simple altimeter and measure pressure drop o= n pump inlet. Less pressure drop means that vapor lock risk is reduced. To= ns of stuff you can measure that no one knows. =0A>>>I'd think you'd find i= t takes around 1 tsp to clog the traditional aircraft filter...so planes c= rash. Yet it takes cups of dirt to clog the filter used by every single ca= r manufacturer. Gigantic safety improvement. =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>>>=A0=0A>>>I think the= y discovered that the larger the surface area, the less likely to clog. Th= at's why they all have around 6 to 10 times more surface exposed to wave a= ction than the filters of yesteryear. =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>=A0=0A>>>-al wick=0A>>= >=0A>>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>From: Dave =0A>>>>To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft =0A>>>>Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:57 AM=0A>>>>Subject= : [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing=0A>>>>=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>For the ignorati among us, I must ask.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>How does a filt= er "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers =0A overcome eventual = filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang =0A large it n= ever reaches that point?=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Dave=0A>>>>=0A>>>>On 8/6/2012 8:48 = =0A AM, Al Wick wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>> =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>Excellent questions. You have one resour= ce that stands WAY above others. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know p= recisely what the optimum surface area is, optimum filtration size. Too fi= ne, it clogs needlessly. Too coarse, you increase risk of injector clog. T= oo little surface area, it won't last. They even take into consideration u= nusual needs, like people that operate at super high flow rates. =0A>>>>>= =A0=0A>>>>>A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged filte= rs. Never happens any more because they have new tools to optimize designs= . For example, their course filter screen has around 10 times more surface= area than any airplane filter. Self cleaning,=A0 screen size optimized. S= o debris can't affect your car. It's just brilliant. =0A>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>I = really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs. Unaware of how = close they are to the failure threshold. You can fly for years with margin= al design, tell everyone "works great for me". Unaware you are promoting f= ailure. =0A>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>-al wick=0A>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>----- Original Messag= e ----- =0A>>>>>>From: David Leonard =0A>>>>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraf= t =0A>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 1:35 PM=0A>>>>>>Subject: [FlyRota= ry] Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>So my next q= uestion is how small of filtration do we need?=A0 ie, what is the size of = a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle easily?=0A>>>>>>=0A>>= >>>>I was using the Earls sintered =0A bronze element at 35micro= ns, but I also could use the SS screen =0A version at 85 mic.=A0= The Peterson in line 600 series is MUCH =0A more expensive and = comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS =0A screens.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>= >http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filt= ers/1528539/10002/-1=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=A0 =0A Those do have more= surface area but will be a hassle for me to =0A retrofit, and n= ot sure they are worth 4x the price of the =0A earls.=A0 Lots of= other brands I have=A0 not explored =0A yet.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>I= like the sintered bronze for strength and =0A durability.=A0 Ot= her opinions?=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>Dave Leonard=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>On Su= n, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard wrote:=0A>= >>>>>=0A>>>>>>Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 = sq cm worth of area.=A0 Will look into the Peterson.=A0 Thanks Tracy.=0A>>= >>>>>=0A>>>>>>>Dave Leonard=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>On Sun, Aug 5, 201= 2 at 10:48 AM, Tracy wrote:=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>Al prob= ably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. =A0OK, but very har= d to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =A0 I used a gascolator for low side = filter on my -4. =A0Worked OK and when it clogged, =A0switching on the ba= ckup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel b= ypass it. =A0 which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal solutio= n.=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>On the -8 i used a cleanable =A0Peterson= filter with TONS of filter area, works great. =A0 That was a replacement = for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of = a nickel. =A0It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.=0A>>>>>>>>=0A= >>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Tracy=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>>On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard = wrote:=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Yes, it was the high side filter.= =A0 I don't have any low side filters.=A0 Would be interested in a source = for the self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions.=0A>>>= >>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>-- =0A>>>>>>>>>David Leonard=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>Turbo= Rotary RV-6 =0A N4VY=0A>>>>>>>>>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.= net=0A>>>>>>>>>http://RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>O= n Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy wrote:=0A>>>>>>>>= >=0A>>>>>>>>>I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side =A0filter. = =A0 =A0So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side = filter that clogged? =A0( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessin= g high side but not sure.=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>BTW, =A0ni= ce job!=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>Tracy=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>= >>Sent from my iPad=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "A= l Wick" wrote:=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>As = long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using same f= uel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign material y= ou=A0throw at it, it can't clog. It=A0minimizes pressure drop, so lower r= isk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. =0A>>>>>>>>>>= >=A0=0A>>>>>>>>>>>-Al Wick=0A>>>>>>>>>>>Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.= =0A>>>>>>>>>>>Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ =0A = hours from Portland, Oregon=0A>>>>>>>>>>>Glass panel design,= Subaru =0A install, Prop construct, Risk assessment i= nfo:=0A>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm=0A>>>>>>>>>>>---= -- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>From: Jeff Whaley =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>= To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, August 04, 20= 12 1:38 PM=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing=0A>= >>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Dave, having gone through recently= what you just experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down s= afely and with such little damage.=A0 Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot= of time ... obviously you made the right choices.=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff=0A>>= >>>>>>>>>>(Rebuilding my Ride)=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>From: David = Leonard =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: F= w: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 = 06:18:47 -0700 =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>> =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Sigh..=0A>>= >>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Yup, that was me. I have been =0A = meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when =0A = the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close =0A= formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I t= hink =0A I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iow= a as I did =0A notice my fuel return flow cree= p downward but =0A didn't think it was a big p= roblem. =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>On the =0A = incident flight, a one hour formation flight from =0A = SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel =0A = flow drifted down to zero. I actually though it =0A = was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to = =0A give it a lot of attention because we were= in a =0A loose formation. Soon after we pulle= d it together =0A for a tight formation power = switched off. I tried =0A to find a road, but = quickly ran out of options and =0A put it down= in a bean field. With the beans =0A hitting t= he flaps it brought me to a stop in about =0A = 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full =0A = grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in =0A = half but no other damage besides pulling bean =0A = leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers =0A = were very nice, and the stories are true... they = =0A have attractive daughters. They were out t= here =0A barefoot in their Sunday best enjoyin= g the =0A excitement. Helped me clean the fuel= filter and =0A replace the fuses. Within a co= uple of hours I was =0A able to take off from = one of their driveways as =0A they all waived = good bye (but strangely, no one =0A took me up= on my offer for a ride).=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>Landed =0A = at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking =0A = space and a very warm reception from the formation = =0A group and friends. Great support from ever= yone all =0A around, though I am trying to avo= id the obvious =0A new call signs they are try= ing to give =0A me.=0A>>>>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>= >>>-- =0A>>>>>>>>>>>>David =0A Leonard=0A>>>>>>>>>>>= > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for t= he addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any u= nauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this m= essage in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. =0A>= >>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>-- =0A>>>>>>>= David Leonard=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>Turbo Rotary RV-6 =0A N4VY=0A= >>>>>>>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>>>>>http://RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>>= >>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>-- =0A>>>>>>David Leonard=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>Tu= rbo Rotary RV-6 =0A N4VY=0A>>>>>>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A= >>>>>>http://RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>> ---2038480821-1573296199-1344363921=:94777 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok.  = I can't speak to all automotive FI systems, but at least some have full rec= irculating flow ALL THE TIME.  Here's the scenario as I understand it = in many setups:

Tank -&g= t; Pump (in tank) -> High Pressure Filter -> High Pressure Fuel Rail = / injectors -> pressure regulator (referenced to intake manifold) -> = low pressure return to tank

Ingition switch on means fuel fuel pump on.  The pump is always pu= mping the max the engine will ever need - surely with some surplus pressure= and volume.  The regulator spews back what in an automobile will usua= lly be a gross excess of fuel.

Regardless of the power requirement of the right foot, the fuel pump never knows the difference.  It's always pumping it's max.  = ;I've gotten kinda fed up with the automotive industry and don't know if th= is (or a slight variation) is the common setup anymore.  For example, = I've seen some cars where the pump comes on for a few seconds and if the en= gine doesn't fire, shuts down.  But you get the general idea.

Al's revelations of the sloshing= self-cleaning action are pretty awesome and telling.  Good thing to k= now.

-Saro
<= div>
From: "ARGOLDMAN@aol.com" <ARGOLDMAN@aol.com>
= To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rot= ary Forced Landing

=0A=0A = =0A =0A
=0A
Of course, Al,
=0A
 
=0AI am missing the part where the hopped up autophile jumps on the highway= =0Awith his souped up car, steps on the small pedal and cruises at 75%powe= r, with =0Ano letup for say-- 4 hours, to be followed by a similar situatio= n over and over =0Aagain.
=0A
 
=0A
The flow for a 6= 00HP engine would be considered, only if it were run under =0Athe above cir= cumstances.
=0A
 
=0A
Most cars, unless long distanc= e racers, many of which don't finish (and one =0Awonders if they, indeed us= e these types of filters,) independent of their =0Aincreased HP function at= much much reduced HP and fuel burn most of their lives =0A(thus the old sa= w about not using an automotive engine for an airplane). =0AAircraft engine= s, or engines used on aircraft have different thirst needs. Not, =0AIMNSHO = noise, but possible reality.
=0A
 
=0A
Of course the= vehicles with the fuel filters "= totally unnecessary to remove" are not designed to have =0Athe longevity no= r the fuel burn of our aircraft.
=0A
 
=0A
Assume the life of an aircraft to be 20 =0Ayears (although t= hey are considerably longer)
=0A
Consider an average fuel burn of =0A10GPH
=0AConsider flying 100H per =0Aye= ar
=0A
Consider a= verage auto at 20 =0AMPG
=0A
 
=0A
The aircraft at 20 years will have =0Aconsumed 20,000 gal of the smel= ly stuff.
=0A
A s= imilar flow in the auto would equate =0Ato 400,000 miles.
=0A 
=0A
Where the aircraft is still relative= ly =0A"new" it is only very rarely that an auto makes that kind of mileage = and is =0Atypically shredded long before that. Is it possible that these = =0Aself-crap-shedding filters have, for aviation purposes, a limited life s= pan, =0Awhich, since blind, can not be evaluated, except at failure?=
=0A
 
= =0A
The benefit of being able= to look at a =0Afilter element is the ability to take some recourse if pro= blems pop up. =0AInability to inspect stops one from not knowing (although,= for some, there is =0Asolace in that). "If I can't see it, it must not be = there."
=0A
 
=0A
What comes = to mind is the situation =0Awith Chris Barber in which, for whatever reason= chunks (sheets) of epoxy-stuff =0Awere flaking into his fuel tanks. I don'= t know how Chris determined this, but =0Alets, for the sake of conversation= , this situation was not observable through =0Athe filler neck (perhaps hap= pening in a baffled area removed-- there are at =0Aleast 1 or 2, can't reme= mber, however, the fuel pickup is visually isolated from =0Athe filler neck= area, and the flakes plugged the filter due to their shape and =0Asize, he= , after solving his cooling problems might have had an engine failure at = =0A50' on landing after a 5 hr cross country. Of course, when he arrived ba= ck to =0ATerra Firma, short of the runway, hopefully in one piece, the un -= seeable filter =0Awould have "cleaned" itself, and the engine failure would= have been, probably, =0Arelegated to something else.
=0A
<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">Rich
=0A
 =0A
=0A
In a message dated 8/7/2012 10:24:47 A.M. Central Daylig= ht Time, =0Aalwick@juno.com writes:
=0A
=0A <not taken into account is that the fuel flow of an aircraft is =0A s= ignificantly greater than that of a car
=0A
 
=0A Not true in this modern age. 3= 0 years =0A ago would have been true.
=0A
 
=0A
They do take high flow into =0A conside= ration. They design the systems to handle the extremes. When we do =0A qua= lification testing we measure how close we are to failure threshold. "Holy = =0A crap, if this guy has partially clogged filter similar to ones we find= on =0A Kentucky cars 15 years old. AND he is running at full throttle. AN= D he has =0A replaced injectors with high flow ones..........no, he's stil= l within the =0A safety margin."
=0A
 
=0A
Have to admit, I don't know the =0A details of Mazda = fuel flow thresholds. But I do know Japanese =0A companies are expert= at design optimization. They do measure how well sys =0A will perform in = unusual applications. We have what's called a "noise =0A array" and t= est how well sys handles unusual situations outside of our =0A control. So= high flow injectors would be in the noise array. As would fuel =0A from "= Bob's rusty tank".
=0A
 
=0A
Would flow for 600 hp engine be =0A considered? No, not that extreme.=
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
<filter/pump were removed inspected and cleaned, I p= ersonally would =0A feel much better about that installation.
=0A  
=0A
Yes, I t= hink a lot of people are not =0A used to the concept of a design so robust= that failures can't occur. In the =0A case of OEM fuel filtering, it's to= tally unnecessary to remove and inspect. If =0A curious, use one of those = scopes to peer into tank. In this case, remove and =0A inspect would incre= ase risk. I love the irony.
=0A
 
=0A
-al
=0A
 
=0A
-al
=0A
=0A
----- Original Message ----= -
=0A
From:<= /b> =0A ARGOLDMAN@aol.com
=0A
<= b>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A =0A
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2= 012 7:39 =0A AM
=0A
Subject:<= /b> [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. =0A Was: Rotary Forced Landing
= =0A

=0A=
Al,
=0A
 
=0A
Of course, what is no= t taken into account by the auto guys is that the =0A fuel flow of an ai= rcraft is significantly greater than that of a car and =0A that old plan= es are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pull =0A over to = the side if the filter gets plugged totally or partially.
=0A
=  
=0A
Now if, as part of a conditional inspection, the fi= lter/pump were =0A removed inspected and cleaned, I personally would fee= l much better about =0A that installation.
=0A
 
= =0A
Rich
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
In a = message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =0A alwick@j= uno.com writes:
=0A
=0A
Dave says:=
=0A
<How does a filter "Self clean"?
=0A  
=0A
I mentioned this a couple years ago. One of the = guys called Bull =0A Sh__. Well, not really, but what he did was most = impressive. He went to =0A local wrecking yard, bought two used coarse= filters. They reside in the =0A fuel tank. I think he spent like $5 o= r so.
=0A
Then he puts it in bucket, no I think he has old = aquarium. Attached a =0A pump to it. Then got some dirt and debris fro= m yard and poured it on. As I =0A recall he could not get it to clog. = But the self cleaning was obvious when =0A he added a little wave acti= on and vibration to it.
=0A
If you take this a little furth= er, you can actually measure pump flow =0A rate by timing how long it = takes to fill jug. You can then look at jug =0A contents so see how fi= ne it screens. You can add a simple altimeter and =0A measure pressure= drop on pump inlet. Less pressure drop means that vapor =0A lock risk= is reduced. Tons of stuff you can measure that no one knows. =0A =0A
I'd think you'd find it takes around 1 tsp to clog the trad= itional =0A aircraft filter...so planes crash. Yet it takes cups of di= rt to clog the =0A filter used by every single car manufacturer. Gigan= tic safety improvement. =0A
=0A
 
=0A <= div><How DO the car manufacturers overcome eventual filter =0A clog= ging/saturation? Just by making it so dang <large it never reaches =0A = that point?
=0A
 
=0A
I think they d= iscovered that the larger the surface area, the less =0A likely to clo= g. That's why they all have around 6 to 10 times more surface =0A expo= sed to wave action than the filters of yesteryear.
=0A
&nbs= p;
=0A
 
=0A
-al wick
=0A =
=0A
----- Original Message -----
=0A
From: =0A Dave
=0A =0A
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:57 =0A = AM
=0A
Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Fuel =0A Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing
=0A =

=0A
= For the ignorati among us, I must =0A ask.

How does a filter = "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers =0A overcome eventual fil= ter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang =0A large it neve= r reaches that point?

Dave

On 8/6/2012 8:48 =0A AM, Al= Wick wrote:
=0A
=0A =0A= =0A=0A
<how small of filtration d= o we need?
=0A
<size of a particle that will fit thro= ugh the injector nozzle =0A easily?
=0A
 <= /div>=0A
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stan= ds WAY above =0A others. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know p= recisely what the =0A optimum surface area is, optimum filtration = size. Too fine, it clogs =0A needlessly. Too coarse, you increase = risk of injector clog. Too little =0A surface area, it won't last.= They even take into consideration unusual =0A needs, like people = that operate at super high flow rates.
=0A
 
= =0A
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged= =0A filters. Never happens any more because they have new tools t= o =0A optimize designs. For example, their course filter screen ha= s around =0A 10 times more surface area than any airplane filter. = Self =0A cleaning,  screen size optimized. So debris can't af= fect your =0A car. It's just brilliant.
=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A
I really worry about builders copying marginal = fuel designs. =0A Unaware of how close they are to the failure thr= eshold. You can fly =0A for years with marginal design, tell every= one "works great for me". =0A Unaware you are promoting failure. <= /div>=0A
 
=0A
-al wick
=0A =
 
=0A
=0A
----- Original Message= -----
=0A =0A = =0A
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 =0A 1:35 PM=0A
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Fuel =0A Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing
=0A =

So my next question is how small of filtration do we =0A = need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit thro= ugh =0A the injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls= sintered =0A bronze element at 35microns, but I also could use = the SS screen =0A version at 85 mic.  The Peterson in line = 600 series is MUCH =0A more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 1= 00 micron SS =0A screens.

http://ww= w.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/152853= 9/10002/-1

  =0A Those do have more surface area= but will be a hassle for me to =0A retrofit, and not sure they = are worth 4x the price of the =0A earls.  Lots of other bra= nds I have  not explored =0A yet.

I like the sintere= d bronze for strength and =0A durability.  Other opinions?<= br>
Dave Leonard

=0A
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David =0A Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
=0A =
=0A
=0A
Y= ea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with =0A maybe 10= sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the =0A Peterson.&n= bsp; Thanks Tracy.

Dave Leonard

=0A
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy =0A = <rwstracy@gmail.com> =0Awrote:<= br>=0A
=0A =
=0A
Al probably means the filter th= at's on factory in-tank =0A pumps.  OK, but very hard t= o implement on RV wet-wing =0A tanks.   I used a gascol= ator for low side filter on my -4. =0A  Worked OK and w= hen it clogged,  switching on the =0A backup pump with = main pump caused the screen disk to collapse =0A and let fue= l bypass it.   which is better than no fuel at =0A all = but not an ideal solution.
=0A

=0A =
On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with =0A = TONS of filter area, works great.   That was a replacem= ent =0A for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter elem= ent disk the =0A size of a nickel.  It clogged up in ab= out about 5 hours of =0A flight.
=0A =0A

=0A
Tracy

Se= nt from my iPad
=0A
=0A
= =0A

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <= = wdleonard@gmail.com> =0A wrote:

=0A =
=0A
Yes, it was = the high side filter.  I don't have any =0A low side = filters.  Would be interested in a source for =0A the= self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al =0A men= tions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 =0A = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryR= oster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

=0A
On Sun= , Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy =0A <= rws= tracy@gmail.com> =0A wrote:
=0A =
=0A =
=0A
I assume Al is referring to the pum= p intake side =0A  filter.    So for the = record, was it the =0A inlet side or the high pressure s= ide filter that clogged? =0A  ( Both are needed ) &= gt;From the symptoms I'm guessing =0A high side but not = sure.
=0A

=0A BTW,  nice job!
=0A

=0A =
Tracy

Sent from my iPad
=0A =
=0A
=0A

On Aug = 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> =0A wrote= :

=0A
=0A =
=0A
As long as your are rebuil= ding, tremendous safety =0A improvement by using same = fuel filter method that all cars =0A use. No matter ho= w much foreign material you throw at =0A it, it c= an't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so =0A low= er risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self =0A = priming pumps.
=0A
 
=0A =
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. =0A =
Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ =0A = hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Suba= ru =0A install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:<= br>http://w= ww.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
=0A =0A
----- Original Message =0A ---= --
=0A
From: =0A Jeff Whaley =0A =0A
Sent= : Saturday, =0A August 04, 2012 1:38 PM
=0A=
Subject: =0A= [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing
=0A =

=0A
=0A =
Dave, having gone through recently what you just =0A = experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down =0A = safely and with such little damage.  Anyway at = 1500 =0A AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously= you made the =0A right choices.
=0A =
Jeff
=0A
(Rebuilding my = Ride)
=0A
 
=0A = =0A = =0A =0A =
=0A = =0A =0A = =0A =0A =0A =
= =0A =0A = =0A =0A = =0A =0A = =0A =0A = =0A = =0A =0A = =0A = =0A =0A
From:David Leonard = <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject:Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary =0A = Forced Landing
Date:Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To:=0A Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
3D"http://lancaironline.net=

3D"http://lancaironline.net:81/Lists/fly= =0A
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been =0A = meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when = =0A the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in = a close =0A formation of 40 aircraft at the ti= me too. I think =0A I got some bad MOGAS somew= here in Iowa as I did =0A notice my fuel retur= n flow creep downward but =0A didn't think it = was a big problem.

On the =0A incident= flight, a one hour formation flight from =0A = SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel =0A = flow drifted down to zero. I actually though it =0A = was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to =0A = give it a lot of attention because we were in a =0A = loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together= =0A for a tight formation power switched off.= I tried =0A to find a road, but quickly ran o= ut of options and =0A put it down in a bean fi= eld. With the beans =0A hitting the flaps it b= rought me to a stop in about =0A 200ft, just b= efore I would have gone into the full =0A grow= n corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in =0A = half but no other damage besides pulling bean =0A = leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers =0A = were very nice, and the stories are true... they =0A = have attractive daughters. They were out there =0A = barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the =0A = excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and = =0A replace the fuses. Within a couple of hour= s I was =0A able to take off from one of their= driveways as =0A they all waived good bye (bu= t strangely, no one =0A took me up on my offer= for a ride).

Landed =0A at OSH just be= fore dark to a reserved parking =0A space and = a very warm reception from the formation =0A g= roup and friends. Great support from everyone all =0A = around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious =0A = new call signs they are trying to give =0A = me.

--
David =0A Leonard
This message, =0A and = the documents attached hereto, is intended only for =0A = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential =0A = information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly =0A = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, = =0A please notify us immediately so that we may corr= ect our =0A internal records. Please then delete the= original =0A message. Thank you. =0A = <= br>

=


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV= -6 =0A N4VY
http:= //N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://Rotar= yRoster.net


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 =0A N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
<= /blockquote>
=

= ---2038480821-1573296199-1344363921=:94777--