X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma04.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5697504 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 14:21:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.42; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.72]) by imr-ma04.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q77IKaOQ029365 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2012 14:20:36 -0400 Received: from core-dsd003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dsd003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.253.137]) by mtaomg-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id E8644E000082 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2012 14:20:35 -0400 (EDT) From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Message-ID: <19f11.315a2ce7.3d52b673@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 14:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_19f11.315a2ce7.3d52b673_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [24.14.64.174] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1344363636; bh=ipJHgghXYWNnAMn3q/KccNDzN3WgXvwb+vIU6O22K8M=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jg2vk8EiaNKsSEU/Tibqtuu0aKYC+fsREBPzdqcSGRSZAwtiJsjS6vny/gMc5bqQS mNeAvBe0PMpbAe/TGAoVOF2TogvoDP0b2CezssblzCGVd/VjmznQ7pi3f0+qtCYKGy T/kfhtxLeRSecNnaZMIc6Z8rV7+ewhYn4U9H8ees= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:494009152:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 1 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294850215c7319a2 --part1_19f11.315a2ce7.3d52b673_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit without question!!!! Rich In a message dated 8/7/2012 10:30:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, msteitle@gmail.com writes: Bottom line is that engines need pressurized fuel to run. There are other possible reasons other than a plugged fuel filter that may prevent pressurized fuel from reaching the injectors, such as a worn out/defective fuel pump, leaking/defective pressure regulator, plugged fuel tank vent, loose/cracked fuel line connection, leaking fuel line, incorrect/corrupted MAP table, etc. We are dealing with "fuel systems", not just fuel filters. A throttle cable coming loose could be just as bad as a plugged fuel filter. Seems prudent for us to monitor our fuel pressures, and land at the first suitable airport and fix it if it is not up to spec. And change the fuel filter at every annual, or sooner if you get some bad gas. Mark S. On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:39 AM, <_ARGOLDMAN@aol.com_ (mailto:ARGOLDMAN@aol.com) > wrote: Al, Of course, what is not taken into account by the auto guys is that the fuel flow of an aircraft is significantly greater than that of a car and that old planes are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pull over to the side if the filter gets plugged totally or partially. Now if, as part of a conditional inspection, the filter/pump were removed inspected and cleaned, I personally would feel much better about that installation. Rich In a message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _alwick@juno.com_ (mailto:alwick@juno.com) writes: Dave says: wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <_rwstracy@gmail.com_ (mailto:rwstracy@gmail.com) > wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of filter area, works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <_wdleonard@gmail.com_ (mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com) > wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <_rwstracy@gmail.com_ (mailto:rwstracy@gmail.com) > wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? ( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <_alwick@juno.com_ (mailto:alwick@juno.com) > wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: _http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm_ (http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm) ----- Original Message ----- From: _Jeff Whaley_ (mailto:jwhaley@datacast.com) To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage. Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the right choices. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) From: David Leonard <_wdleonard@gmail.com_ (mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com) > Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > (http://lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/58662-H.txt) (http://lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/58662-P.txt) Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big problem. On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me. -- David Leonard This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) --part1_19f11.315a2ce7.3d52b673_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
without question!!!!
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 8/7/2012 10:30:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 msteitle@gmail.com writes:
= Bottom=20 line is that engines need pressurized fuel to run.  There are other= =20 possible reasons other than a plugged fuel filter that may prevent pressu= rized=20 fuel from reaching the injectors, such as a worn out/defective fuel pump,= =20 leaking/defective pressure regulator, plugged fuel tank vent, loose/crack= ed=20 fuel line connection, leaking fuel line, incorrect/corrupted MAP table, e= tc.=20  We are dealing with "fuel systems", not just fuel filters.  A= =20 throttle cable coming loose could be just as bad as a plugged fuel filter= .=20  Seems prudent for us to monitor our fuel pressures, and land at the= =20 first suitable airport and fix it if it is not up to spec.  And chan= ge=20 the fuel filter at every annual, or sooner if you get some bad gas.= =20

Mark S.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:39 AM, = <ARGOLDMAN@aol.com> wrote:
Al,
 
Of course, what is not taken into account by the auto guys is that= the=20 fuel flow of an aircraft is significantly greater than that of a car an= d=20 that old planes are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pul= l=20 over to the side if the filter gets plugged totally or partially.
 
Now if, as part of a conditional inspection, the filter/pump were= =20 removed inspected and cleaned, I personally would feel much better abou= t=20 that installation.
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, <= A=20 title=3Dmailto:alwick@juno.com href=3D"mailto:alwick@juno.com"=20 target=3D_blank>alwick@juno.com writes:
Dave says:
<How does a filter "Self clean"?
 
I mentioned this a couple years ago. One of the guys called Bull= =20 Sh__. Well, not really, but what he did was most impressive. He went = to=20 local wrecking yard, bought two used coarse filters. They reside in t= he=20 fuel tank. I think he spent like $5 or so.
Then he puts it in bucket, no I think he has old aquarium. Attac= hed a=20 pump to it. Then got some dirt and debris from yard and poured it on.= As I=20 recall he could not get it to clog. But the self cleaning was obvious= when=20 he added a little wave action and vibration to it.
If you take this a little further, you can actually measure pump= flow=20 rate by timing how long it takes to fill jug. You can then look at ju= g=20 contents so see how fine it screens. You can add a simple altimeter a= nd=20 measure pressure drop on pump inlet. Less pressure drop means that va= por=20 lock risk is reduced. Tons of stuff you can measure that no one knows= .=20
I'd think you'd find it takes around 1 tsp to clog the tradition= al=20 aircraft filter...so planes crash. Yet it takes cups of dirt to clog = the=20 filter used by every single car manufacturer. Gigantic safety improve= ment.=20
 
<How DO the car manufacturers overcome eventual filter=20 clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang <large it never rea= ches=20 that point?
 
I think they discovered that the larger the surface area, the le= ss=20 likely to clog. That's why they all have around 6 to 10 times more su= rface=20 exposed to wave action than the filters of yesteryear.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From: <= A=20 title=3Dmailto:david.staten@gmail.com href=3D"mailto:david.staten@g= mail.com"=20 target=3D_blank>Dave
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Monday, August 06, 201= 2 6:57=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fue= l=20 Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

For the ignorati among us, I must ask.

How does a filte= r=20 "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers overcome eventual filter= =20 clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang large it never reach= es=20 that point?

Dave

On 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al Wick=20 wrote:
<how small of filtration do we need?
<size of a particle that will fit through the injector no= zzle=20 easily?
 
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stands WAY a= bove=20 others. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what th= e=20 optimum surface area is, optimum filtration size. Too fine, it cl= ogs=20 needlessly. Too coarse, you increase risk of injector clog. Too l= ittle=20 surface area, it won't last. They even take into consideration un= usual=20 needs, like people that operate at super high flow rates.
 
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged=20 filters. Never happens any more because they have new tools to=20 optimize designs. For example, their course filter screen has aro= und=20 10 times more surface area than any airplane filter. Self=20 cleaning,  screen size optimized. So debris can't affect you= r=20 car. It's just brilliant.
 
I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs.= =20 Unaware of how close they are to the failure threshold. You can f= ly=20 for years with marginal design, tell everyone "works great for me= ".=20 Unaware you are promoting failure.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message -----
From: David Leonard
To: Rot= ary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, August 05,= 2012=20 1:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fue= l=20 Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

So my next question is how small of filtration d= o we=20 need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit th= rough=20 the injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sinter= ed=20 bronze element at 35microns, but I also could use the SS screen= =20 version at 85 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 series is MUC= H=20 more expensive and comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS=20 screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Pe= terson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

 =20 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to= =20 retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the=20 earls.  Lots of other brands I have  not explored=20 yet.

I like the sintered bronze for strength and=20 durability.  Other opinions?

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David= =20 Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe= 10=20 sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson. = =20 Thanks Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tra= cy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank= =20 pumps.  OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing= =20 tanks.   I used a gascolator for low side filter on my= -4.=20  Worked OK and when it clogged,  switching on the= =20 backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collap= se=20 and let fuel bypass it.   which is better than no fuel= at=20 all but not an ideal solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter wit= h=20 TONS of filter area, works great.   That was a replace= ment=20 for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element dis= k the=20 size of a nickel.  It clogged up in about about 5 hour= s of=20 flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:

<= /DIV>
Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have= any=20 low side filters.  Would be interested in a source f= or=20 the self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al=20 mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary= RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, = Tracy=20 <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:<= BR>
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side= =20  filter.    So for the record, was it th= e=20 inlet side or the high pressure side filter that clogge= d?=20  ( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm gue= ssing=20 high side but not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> wrote:

<= /DIV>
As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safet= y=20 improvement by using same fuel filter method that all= cars=20 use. No matter how much foreign material you thr= ow at=20 it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, s= o=20 lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self= =20 priming pumps.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.= =20
Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+= =20 hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Su= baru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.= htm
----- Original Mess= age=20 -----
= From:=20 Jeff=20 Whaley
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Saturd= ay,=20 August 04, 2012 1:38 PM
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just= =20 experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting= down=20 safely and with such little damage.  Anyway at= 1500=20 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you mad= e the=20 right choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>=
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rot= ary=20 Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >

=20
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been= =20 meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl= when=20 the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a c= lose=20 formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I t= hink=20 I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I d= id=20 notice my fuel return flow creep downward but= =20 didn't think it was a big problem.

On= the=20 incident flight, a one hour formation flight = from=20 SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fue= l=20 flow drifted down to zero. I actually though = it=20 was a sensor problem. I didn't have the abili= ty to=20 give it a lot of attention because we were in= a=20 loose formation. Soon after we pulled it toge= ther=20 for a tight formation power switched off. I t= ried=20 to find a road, but quickly ran out of option= s and=20 put it down in a bean field. With the beans= =20 hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in = about=20 200ft, just before I would have gone into the= full=20 grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke i= n=20 half but no other damage besides pulling bean= =20 leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farm= ers=20 were very nice, and the stories are true... t= hey=20 have attractive daughters. They were out ther= e=20 barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the=20 excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter a= nd=20 replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I= was=20 able to take off from one of their driveways = as=20 they all waived good bye (but strangely, no o= ne=20 took me up on my offer for a ride).

La= nded=20 at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking= =20 space and a very warm reception from the form= ation=20 group and friends. Great support from everyon= e all=20 around, though I am trying to avoid the obvio= us=20 new call signs they are trying to give=20 me.

--
David=20 Leonard
This mes= sage,=20 and the documents attached hereto, is intended only= for=20 the addressee and may contain privileged or confide= ntial=20 information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictl= y=20 prohibited. If you have received this message in er= ror,=20 please notify us immediately so that we may correct= our=20 internal records. Please then delete the original= =20 message. Thank you.=20




--=
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
=



--=
David=20 Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


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