X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.78.142] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with ESMTP id 5696908 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 10:40:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.78.142; envelope-from=ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.10]) by imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q77EdUJd012515 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:39:30 -0400 Received: from core-dsd003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-dsd003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.253.137]) by mtaomg-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id DC545E000082 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:39:29 -0400 (EDT) From: ARGOLDMAN@aol.com Message-ID: <2dd76.1ee455c.3d5282a1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_2dd76.1ee455c.3d5282a1_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [24.14.64.174] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1344350370; bh=BXRan6jCUUYomHdwxEwXu6CqAmBeDX71s1iwNIG4e5A=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jPoGMtGTPbja6CbCfYYShYoFZh83pJBTUbpajWfx/FnplmMdCFQY4olTXgH07WCux VYFJj2yP4DS2/4jEMyBeUrpWnbHB2J2k8R9RKTsytWYe1ll49hGxCyaugmTY2AB6Y7 jR5K3uz0THTnkrAJYC41xK3GcXfrnXbS/WIsZ/0g= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:488041152:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 2 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290a502128a15ce2 --part1_2dd76.1ee455c.3d5282a1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al, Of course, what is not taken into account by the auto guys is that the fuel flow of an aircraft is significantly greater than that of a car and that old planes are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pull over to the side if the filter gets plugged totally or partially. Now if, as part of a conditional inspection, the filter/pump were removed inspected and cleaned, I personally would feel much better about that installation. Rich In a message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alwick@juno.com writes: Dave says: wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <_rwstracy@gmail.com_ (mailto:rwstracy@gmail.com) > wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of filter area, works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <_wdleonard@gmail.com_ (mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com) > wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy <_rwstracy@gmail.com_ (mailto:rwstracy@gmail.com) > wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? ( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <_alwick@juno.com_ (mailto:alwick@juno.com) > wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: _http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm_ (http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm) ----- Original Message ----- From: _Jeff Whaley_ (mailto:jwhaley@datacast.com) To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with such little damage. Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the right choices. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) From: David Leonard <_wdleonard@gmail.com_ (mailto:wdleonard@gmail.com) > Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > (http://lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/58662-H.txt) (http://lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/58662-P.txt) Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't think it was a big problem. On the incident flight, a one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up on my offer for a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved parking space and a very warm reception from the formation group and friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me. -- David Leonard This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY _http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net_ (http://n4vy.rotaryroster.net/) _http://RotaryRoster.net_ (http://rotaryroster.net/) --part1_2dd76.1ee455c.3d5282a1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
Of course, what is not taken into account by the auto guys is that the= fuel=20 flow of an aircraft is significantly greater than that of a car and that ol= d=20 planes are still flying and don't have the opportunity to "pull over to the= side=20 if the filter gets plugged totally or partially.
 
Now if, as part of a conditional inspection, the filter/pump were remo= ved=20 inspected and cleaned, I personally would feel much better about that=20 installation.
 
Rich
 
In a message dated 8/6/2012 10:58:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 alwick@juno.com writes:
=
Dave says:
<How does a filter "Self clean"?
 
I mentioned this a couple years ago. One of the guys called Bull Sh_= _.=20 Well, not really, but what he did was most impressive. He went to local= =20 wrecking yard, bought two used coarse filters. They reside in the fuel ta= nk. I=20 think he spent like $5 or so.
Then he puts it in bucket, no I think he has old aquarium. Attached = a=20 pump to it. Then got some dirt and debris from yard and poured it on. As = I=20 recall he could not get it to clog. But the self cleaning was obvious whe= n he=20 added a little wave action and vibration to it.
If you take this a little further, you can actually measure pump flo= w=20 rate by timing how long it takes to fill jug. You can then look at jug=20 contents so see how fine it screens. You can add a simple altimeter and= =20 measure pressure drop on pump inlet. Less pressure drop means that vapor = lock=20 risk is reduced. Tons of stuff you can measure that no one knows.
I'd think you'd find it takes around 1 tsp to clog the traditional= =20 aircraft filter...so planes crash. Yet it takes cups of dirt to clog the= =20 filter used by every single car manufacturer. Gigantic safety improvement= .=20
 
<How DO the car manufacturers overcome eventual filter=20 clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang <large it never reaches= that=20 point?
 
I think they discovered that the larger the surface area, the less l= ikely=20 to clog. That's why they all have around 6 to 10 times more surface expos= ed to=20 wave action than the filters of yesteryear.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
F= rom:=20 Dave
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:= 57=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Fi= lters.=20 Was: Rotary Forced Landing

For the ignorati among us, I must ask.
=
How=20 does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers overcome event= ual=20 filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang large it never re= aches=20 that point?

Dave

On 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al Wick wrote:
<= /DIV>
<how small of filtration do we need?
<size of a particle that will fit through the injector nozzle= =20 easily?
 
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stands WAY above= =20 others. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what the op= timum=20 surface area is, optimum filtration size. Too fine, it clogs needless= ly.=20 Too coarse, you increase risk of injector clog. Too little surface ar= ea,=20 it won't last. They even take into consideration unusual needs, like= =20 people that operate at super high flow rates.
 
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged filter= s.=20 Never happens any more because they have new tools to optimize design= s.=20 For example, their course filter screen has around 10 times more surf= ace=20 area than any airplane filter. Self cleaning,  screen size optim= ized.=20 So debris can't affect your car. It's just brilliant.
 
I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs. Una= ware=20 of how close they are to the failure threshold. You can fly for years= with=20 marginal design, tell everyone "works great for me". Unaware you are= =20 promoting failure.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 David Leonard
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 201= 2 1:35=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel Fi= lters.=20 Was: Rotary Forced Landing

So my next question is how small of filtration do we= =20 need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit throug= h the=20 injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered bronz= e=20 element at 35microns, but I also could use the SS screen version at= 85=20 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive a= nd=20 comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Syste= ms/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

 =20 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to retr= ofit,=20 and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.  Lots o= f=20 other brands I have  not explored yet.

I like the sinte= red=20 bronze for strength and durability.  Other opinions?

Da= ve=20 Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David Leo= nard=20 <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:<= BR>
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure wit= h maybe=20 10 sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson. = =20 Thanks Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy <= SPAN=20 dir=3Dltr><rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:=
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pum= ps.=20  OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. &nbs= p; I=20 used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4.  Worked OK= and=20 when it clogged,  switching on the backup pump with main p= ump=20 caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it. &nbs= p;=20 which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal solution.<= /DIV>

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with TO= NS of=20 filter area, works great.   That was a replacement for the= =20 Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size o= f a=20 nickel.  It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have any= low=20 side filters.  Would be interested in a source for the= =20 self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al=20 mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-= 6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
= http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Trac= y <rwstracy@gmail.com>=20 wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side=20  filter.    So for the record, was it the in= let=20 side or the high pressure side filter that clogged?  (= Both=20 are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing high side b= ut=20 not sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com>=20 wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety=20 improvement by using same fuel filter method that all car= s=20 use. No matter how much foreign material you throw a= t it,=20 it can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower = risk=20 of vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps.= =20
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20
Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hou= rs=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru insta= ll,=20 Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/i= ndex.htm
----- Original Message = -----=20
From= :=20 Jeff Whaley
To: Rotary motors in aircraft =
Sent: Saturday, = August=20 04, 2012 1:38 PM
Subject: [FlyRot= ary]=20 Re: Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just=20 experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting dow= n=20 safely and with such little damage.  Anyway at 150= 0 AGL=20 there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the ri= ght=20 choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.co= m>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rot= ary=20 Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net>
<= BR>=20
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been=20 meaning to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl whe= n the=20 fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close=20 formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think= I=20 got some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did not= ice=20 my fuel return flow creep downward but didn't thi= nk it=20 was a big problem.

On the incident flight= , a=20 one hour formation flight from SQI for a mass arr= ival=20 at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted down to zero= . I=20 actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't= have=20 the ability to give it a lot of attention because= we=20 were in a loose formation. Soon after we pulled i= t=20 together for a tight formation power switched off= . I=20 tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of opti= ons=20 and put it down in a bean field. With the beans= =20 hitting the flaps it brought me to a stop in abou= t=20 200ft, just before I would have gone into the ful= l=20 grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in ha= lf=20 but no other damage besides pulling bean leaves o= ut of=20 every nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice= , and=20 the stories are true... they have attractive=20 daughters. They were out there barefoot in their= =20 Sunday best enjoying the excitement. Helped me cl= ean=20 the fuel filter and replace the fuses. Within a c= ouple=20 of hours I was able to take off from one of their= =20 driveways as they all waived good bye (but strang= ely,=20 no one took me up on my offer for a=20 ride).

Landed at OSH just before dark to a= =20 reserved parking space and a very warm reception = from=20 the formation group and friends. Great support fr= om=20 everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid = the=20 obvious new call signs they are trying to give=20 me.

--
David=20 Leonard
This message= , and=20 the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the= =20 addressee and may contain privileged or confidential=20 information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly=20 prohibited. If you have received this message in error,= =20 please notify us immediately so that we may correct our= =20 internal records. Please then delete the original messa= ge.=20 Thank you.=20




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4V= Y
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY<= BR>http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

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