X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail02.vgs.untd.com ([64.136.55.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with SMTP id 5696208 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 23:58:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.36; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1344311875; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=kN6K3kJEW1XEakuqud2pd80A5bXAzrSRlYvblt5zfcXEM3RYuFxxdG7uSjbh/j4dv lm67Y8wBZamv1dvpZ13ihxC7RLcvivuAUm9cU2mLnmegNBJGrrpFXN6QqOlxL4sKia Nm70XehVgKYo7JkgDpAxiu0f6wbbmxFBsBoKyEAQ= Received: from Penny (50-39-178-167.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.178.167]) by smtpout02.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABJCBET3A4UX8TJ for (sender ); Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2F188B11BBEE4BDAA1229ADCA55BB220@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 20:57:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0429_01CD7416.20452F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 30670 X-ContentStamp: 72:36:1523672013 X-MAIL-INFO: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 a37acece576ed70f87feee231f5bcb274ee76f1b2b2bfe434773021f670e3eda2b3be39feb6ebfef9fbb7e07fb3bd3eecf7e9bbbbe17efaa5e8a1fbf337e1acb97f7db2bde5bcacbb3dac373a377cfdb5ba35bca8b5b57cf6a5bee6a6b4febd72e1eebce X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkGXocyskj4WBsL/9ay9tVlza6cTjcmIRGA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.32|smtpout02.vgs.untd.com|smtpout02.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01CD7416.20452F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave says: wrote: Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq = cm worth of area. Will look into the Peterson. Thanks Tracy. Dave Leonard On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy = wrote: Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pumps. = OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. I used a = gascolator for low side filter on my -4. Worked OK and when it clogged, = switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to = collapse and let fuel bypass it. which is better than no fuel at all = but not an ideal solution. On the -8 i used a cleanable Peterson filter with TONS of = filter area, works great. That was a replacement for the Summit Racing = fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a nickel. It clogged = up in about about 5 hours of flight. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard = wrote: Yes, it was the high side filter. I don't have any low side = filters. Would be interested in a source for the self-cleaning = fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy = wrote: I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side filter. = So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side = filter that clogged? ( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm = guessing high side but not sure. BTW, nice job! Tracy Sent from my iPad On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" = wrote: As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety = improvement by using same fuel filter method that all cars use. No = matter how much foreign material you throw at it, it can't clog. It = minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self cleaning = filter. Self priming pumps.=20 -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R.=20 Expert at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours = from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk = assessment info: http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Forced Landing Dave, having gone through recently what you just = experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting down safely and with = such little damage. Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a lot of time ... = obviously you made the right choices. Jeff (Rebuilding my Ride) From: David Leonard = =20 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: = [FlyRotary] Rotary Forced Landing=20 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =20 =20 =20 =20 Sigh.. Yup, that was me. I have been meaning to fess = up. We were at about 1500 agl when the fuses blew on my fuel pumps. I = was in a close formation of 40 aircraft at the time too. I think I got = some bad MOGAS somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return flow = creep downward but didn't think it was a big problem.=20 On the incident flight, a one hour formation = flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the return fuel flow drifted = down to zero. I actually though it was a sensor problem. I didn't have = the ability to give it a lot of attention because we were in a loose = formation. Soon after we pulled it together for a tight formation power = switched off. I tried to find a road, but quickly ran out of options and = put it down in a bean field. With the beans hitting the flaps it brought = me to a stop in about 200ft, just before I would have gone into the full = grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in half but no other damage = besides pulling bean leaves out of every nook and cranny. The farmers = were very nice, and the stories are true... they have attractive = daughters. They were out there barefoot in their Sunday best enjoying = the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter and replace the fuses. = Within a couple of hours I was able to take off from one of their = driveways as they all waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me up = on my offer for a ride). Landed at OSH just before dark to a reserved = parking space and a very warm reception from the formation group and = friends. Great support from everyone all around, though I am trying to = avoid the obvious new call signs they are trying to give me. --=20 David Leonard =20 This message, and the documents attached hereto, is = intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us = immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then = delete the original message. Thank you.=20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0429_01CD7416.20452F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave says:
<How does a filter "Self clean"?
 
I mentioned this a couple years ago. One of the guys called Bull = Sh__.=20 Well, not really, but what he did was most impressive. He went to local = wrecking=20 yard, bought two used coarse filters. They reside in the fuel tank. I = think he=20 spent like $5 or so.
Then he puts it in bucket, no I think he has old aquarium. Attached = a pump=20 to it. Then got some dirt and debris from yard and poured it on. As I = recall he=20 could not get it to clog. But the self cleaning was obvious when he = added a=20 little wave action and vibration to it.
If you take this a little further, you can actually measure pump = flow rate=20 by timing how long it takes to fill jug. You can then look at jug = contents so=20 see how fine it screens. You can add a simple altimeter and measure = pressure=20 drop on pump inlet. Less pressure drop means that vapor lock risk is = reduced.=20 Tons of stuff you can measure that no one knows.
I'd think you'd find it takes around 1 tsp to clog the traditional = aircraft=20 filter...so planes crash. Yet it takes cups of dirt to clog the filter = used by=20 every single car manufacturer. Gigantic safety improvement.
 
<How DO the car manufacturers overcome eventual filter=20 clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang <large it never = reaches that=20 point?
 
I think they discovered that the larger the surface area, the less = likely=20 to clog. That's why they all have around 6 to 10 times more surface = exposed to=20 wave action than the filters of yesteryear.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave=20
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 = 6:57=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel = Filters.=20 Was: Rotary Forced Landing

For the ignorati among us, I must = ask.

How=20 does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers overcome = eventual=20 filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so dang large it never = reaches=20 that point?

Dave

On 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al Wick = wrote:
<how small of filtration do we need?
<size of a particle that will fit through the injector = nozzle=20 easily?
 
Excellent questions. You have one resource that stands WAY = above=20 others. What do the OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what the = optimum=20 surface area is, optimum filtration size. Too fine, it clogs = needlessly. Too=20 coarse, you increase risk of injector clog. Too little surface area, = it=20 won't last. They even take into consideration unusual needs, like = people=20 that operate at super high flow rates.
 
A few decades ago, cars would periodically suffer clogged = filters.=20 Never happens any more because they have new tools to optimize = designs. For=20 example, their course filter screen has around 10 times more surface = area=20 than any airplane filter. Self cleaning,  screen size = optimized. So=20 debris can't affect your car. It's just brilliant.
 
I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs. = Unaware of=20 how close they are to the failure threshold. You can fly for years = with=20 marginal design, tell everyone "works great for me". Unaware you are = promoting failure.
 
-al wick
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 David Leonard
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, August 05, = 2012 1:35=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel = Filters.=20 Was: Rotary Forced Landing

So my next question is how small of filtration do = we=20 need?  ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit = through the=20 injector nozzle easily?

I was using the Earls sintered = bronze=20 element at 35microns, but I also could use the SS screen version = at 85=20 mic.  The Peterson in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive = and=20 comes in 45, 60, and 100 micron SS screens.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Pet= erson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/1528539/10002/-1

 =20 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassle for me to = retrofit,=20 and not sure they are worth 4x the price of the earls.  Lots = of other=20 brands I have  not explored yet.

I like the sintered = bronze=20 for strength and durability.  Other opinions?

Dave=20 Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 12:42 PM, David = Leonard=20 <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:
Yea, mine is an Earls cleanable high pressure = with maybe=20 10 sq cm worth of area.  Will look into the Peterson.  = Thanks=20 Tracy.

Dave Leonard

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy = <rwstracy@gmail.com> = wrote:
Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank = pumps.=20  OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =   I=20 used a gascolator for low side filter on my -4.  Worked = OK and=20 when it clogged,  switching on the backup pump with main = pump=20 caused the screen disk to collapse and let fuel bypass it. =  =20 which is better than no fuel at all but not an ideal = solution.

On the -8 i used a cleanable  Peterson filter with = TONS of=20 filter area, works great.   That was a replacement for = the Summit=20 Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size of a = nickel.=20  It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 5, 2012, at 10:18 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

Yes, it was the high side filter.  I don't have = any low=20 side filters.  Would be interested in a source for the=20 self-cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al=20 mentions.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary = RV-6=20 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, = Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> = wrote:
I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side=20  filter.    So for the record, was it the = inlet=20 side or the high pressure side filter that clogged? =  ( Both=20 are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing high side = but not=20 sure.

BTW,  nice job!

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com>=20 wrote:

As long as your are rebuilding, tremendous safety=20 improvement by using same fuel filter method that all = cars use.=20 No matter how much foreign material you throw at = it, it=20 can't clog. It minimizes pressure drop, so lower = risk of=20 vapor lock. Self cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. =
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by RDM Subaru 3.0R. =
Expert=20 at failure prevention methods, N9032U 240+ hours from = Portland,=20 Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop = construct,=20 Risk assessment info:
http://www.ez.org/pages/alwick/index.htm
----- Original Message = -----=20
From: Jeff = Whaley
To: Rotary motors in aircraft =
Sent: Saturday, = August=20 04, 2012 1:38 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Rotary Forced Landing

Dave, having gone through recently what you just=20 experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting = down=20 safely and with such little damage.  Anyway at = 1500 AGL=20 there isn't a lot of time ... obviously you made the = right=20 choices.

Jeff

(Rebuilding my Ride)

 

From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] = Rotary=20 Forced Landing
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 = -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
 3D"Message

3D"Undecoded=20
Sigh..

Yup, that was me. I have been = meaning=20 to fess up. We were at about 1500 agl when the = fuses=20 blew on my fuel pumps. I was in a close = formation of 40=20 aircraft at the time too. I think I got some bad = MOGAS=20 somewhere in Iowa as I did notice my fuel return = flow=20 creep downward but didn't think it was a big = problem.=20

On the incident flight, a one hour = formation=20 flight from SQI for a mass arrival at OSH, the = return=20 fuel flow drifted down to zero. I actually = though it was=20 a sensor problem. I didn't have the ability to = give it a=20 lot of attention because we were in a loose = formation.=20 Soon after we pulled it together for a tight = formation=20 power switched off. I tried to find a road, but = quickly=20 ran out of options and put it down in a bean = field. With=20 the beans hitting the flaps it brought me to a = stop in=20 about 200ft, just before I would have gone into = the full=20 grown corn. As mentioned, wheel pants broke in = half but=20 no other damage besides pulling bean leaves out = of every=20 nook and cranny. The farmers were very nice, and = the=20 stories are true... they have attractive = daughters. They=20 were out there barefoot in their Sunday best = enjoying=20 the excitement. Helped me clean the fuel filter = and=20 replace the fuses. Within a couple of hours I = was able=20 to take off from one of their driveways as they = all=20 waived good bye (but strangely, no one took me = up on my=20 offer for a ride).

Landed at OSH just = before dark=20 to a reserved parking space and a very warm = reception=20 from the formation group and friends. Great = support from=20 everyone all around, though I am trying to avoid = the=20 obvious new call signs they are trying to give=20 me.

--
David=20 Leonard
This = message, and=20 the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the=20 addressee and may contain privileged or confidential=20 information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly=20 prohibited. If you have received this message in = error, please=20 notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal=20 records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you.=20 =

=
<= BR>
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net


--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

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