X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm27-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0c1) with SMTP id 5696146 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 21:01:31 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.187; envelope-from=roundrocktom@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.55] by nm27.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2012 01:00:57 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.6] by tm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2012 01:00:57 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Aug 2012 01:00:57 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 405950.99508.bm@omp1006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 12823 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Aug 2012 01:00:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1344301256; bh=B6jEz6pMX8dalv0Yz0ClHItfcRCm8YLOVBVa2/Lwlvs=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zKk9JsJzglV/AiKnlW/CWR4U+rm2CGfu7KixVaZceQd+Xvb2F2IWeN0qL3HoSHp0kr9Z4vKjeO2IoHKm0d3PBx+vN/vdM8biKH9jZpEkwVPemOlzV1q9Ql+gKL0jw7EtEIHLmasAlcy/d7YrMqYSshNX5JVvi6Ch4An8wSls7gM= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CMIrOs2TSk2Jt9wOZcdDnCDud24kJS+Cy3YcqoOM+t6vCM8ai+hHWqqY11T82gdtmAWorAKwhdZpdrEHuCB5Xid9Fv7kYjRM49kE7wQL9qcl+M2qQYOA+JOFW0Gjwkl6HJxFVrCeHLrzQbfq0/fDOBRxwoeIFwxw+Yo0Xyu4ZPI=; X-YMail-OSG: TiBVR1gVM1ma2jOS.TfWkJynieErm5rKqgJi_.SbfeSfLjm bTfwSOpaiXAH.xPjf8ZNCDgj1o5go78rtAMjaq.mRx48WdPNjL4ERIdCkLWg nChXF.l7FZc5_emijuI8hFfwr9AWapZqBbKU62PC0IEobRqkRvaUG4CmGi24 9AiCTTH54gkLMhOcPuRZs8599r4uaXMbnDOiC8a9Nke9uFqoWWMn958NBAJ3 hwNHz3uSCLdxv_BAVAJtkZ4PtlZR5N1LxDrtnfAyZL5QXd3k7VnThK8APfUr ul7xFpz6Lq5DFbjDUnMb7Ttk5aZQGVU2y9WPzcRXd.43Oc7tx9SJePGcu6Kv 5HVnEey9MZqDkn2wfF9Euxm17sMwVJmWEfJKk2ayA8SHDiah.v8RuEBsL0v0 GydhxRrxoBHdbfEayMEx4N7sUcDsjOiL_w8ah_4.Ozxws3fhoyD6yFfFm8B4 5pmrpr_EPmlXRdYqXLcrlaNnaIn_kjw.nkP7Xd13zS3W4Tdp2XDSE.W.ioM0 v9Gj5EUZeITem.dFc5mVcXxGWTimtD3eh.dINIiGcehkoXRGDDMRt4Q6d1rU lRtDoTJIQKMnFRMd3uAILaIcA9UJR37bxPdC2poIKFC5PFa5pCxDVOrHmwlM F.hOPMGoQudV5JKmYz_ATbEnIPqe49BEmVGOatB4yCWS5T3WvJ48mETyWgLO ZHew.TYWfJ3O54Y5D7i6kxgO8.txnenabUhtfK5Eu15hIu9SW8upIKtvMDnh 8p_mv0wF4qSBzrVYdC0gb7kXLzUirMkcVzsYAVuTx4roIhptweIBkxQNST2X qJpCm17GZ9OITUHU11dJP11V7YL67SP555WaoOX56etGl8bIutFCFstpKsdz 1Yi.skA-- Received: from [72.182.13.58] by web111513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 18:00:56 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 References: Message-ID: <1344301256.11543.YahooMailNeo@web111513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:00:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Walter Reply-To: Tom Walter Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-598724244-221182488-1344301256=:11543" ---598724244-221182488-1344301256=:11543 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One example of a in-tank pick filter can be seen here:=0Ahttp://www.jayraci= ng.com/index.php?main_page=3Dproduct_info&cPath=3D2_5&products_id=3D16724= =0A=0AAny rust and junk will be picked, but once the pump is turned off, th= ere is no more suction and the junkfalls to the bottom of your fuel tank. H= ence the comment "self cleaning" =0A=0A=0AMy son's Nissan had been sitting = for six years, and the fuel tank was full of rust.=A0 Enough flaky rust tha= the could drive one mile, pull over and wait, and drive another mile.=A0 Ma= de it home OK, but took a while.=0A=0ASomeone mentioned it previously, but = just how small of a particle can be easily passed through an injector?If yo= u are using common Mazda Injectors, you really do not want to filter anythi= ng smaller than the Mazdafilter does.=A0 If the injector passes a 100 micro= n particle without problems, there is little need for a filter=A0 that filt= ers down to 10=A0 micron as it will just clog rapidly with poor gas.=A0 =0A= =0A=0AMy Land Cruiser spent years in the Nevada, with the amount of dirt in= gested to the tank. When I rebuilt thecarb there was a lay of fine mud in t= he bottom of the float bowl.=A0 Filter passed the finest stuff so it would= =A0 filter the big stuff. Admitted it was carb'd and not injected... but ev= en if you let dirt through to the injectorit might not close completely for= a few cycles, but would blow the dirt out of the nozzle. Engine would rema= inrunning.=0A=0A=A0=0AAs part of your annual, just pull injectors and bench= flow test them.=A0 I have them squirt into graduated cylinders, and with a= simple injector driver, you can compare if they are all squirting cleanly = and flow the same rates.=A0 Rather than Gasoline, I prefer using mineral sp= irits and Techron injector cleaner.=A0 Less volatile but same specific grav= ity, and does a decent job of cleaning the deposits.=A0 =0A=0A=0ATom=0A=0A= =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dave =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: M= onday, August 6, 2012 8:57 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filters. Was:= Rotary Forced Landing=0A =0A=0AFor the ignorati among us, I must ask.=0A= =0AHow does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers=0A ove= rcome eventual filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so=0A dan= g large it never reaches that point?=0A=0ADave=0A=0AOn 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al= Wick wrote:=0A=0A =0A>=A0=0A>Excelle= nt questions. You have one resource that stands WAY above others. What do t= he OEM vehicles use? They know precisely what the optimum surface area is, = optimum filtration size. Too fine, it clogs needlessly. Too coarse, you inc= rease risk of injector clog. Too little surface area, it won't last. They e= ven take into consideration unusual needs, like people that operate at supe= r high flow rates. =0A>=A0=0A>A few decades ago, cars would periodically su= ffer clogged filters. Never happens any more because they have new tools to= optimize designs. For example, their course filter screen has around 10 ti= mes more surface area than any airplane filter. Self cleaning,=A0 screen si= ze optimized. So debris can't affect your car. It's just brilliant. =0A>=A0= =0A>I really worry about builders copying marginal fuel designs. Unaware of= how close they are to the failure threshold. You can fly for years with ma= rginal design, tell everyone "works great for me". Unaware you are promotin= g failure. =0A>=A0=0A>-al wick=0A>=A0=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>= From: David Leonard =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: Sunday, A= ugust 05, 2012 1:35 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel Filters. Was: Rotary F= orced Landing=0A>>=0A>>=0ASo my next question is how small of filtration do= we need?=A0 ie, what is the size of a particle that will fit through the i= njector nozzle easily?=0A>>=0A>>I was using the Earls sintered bronze eleme= nt at 35microns, but=0A I also could use the SS screen version at 85= mic.=A0 The Peterson=0A in line 600 series is MUCH more expensive a= nd comes in 45, 60,=0A and 100 micron SS screens.=0A>>=0A>>http://ww= w.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-600-Series-Fuel-Filters/152853= 9/10002/-1=0A>>=0A>>=A0 Those do have more surface area but will be a hassl= e for me to=0A retrofit, and not sure they are worth 4x the price of= the=0A earls.=A0 Lots of other brands I have=A0 not explored yet.= =0A>>=0A>>I like the sintered bronze for strength and durability.=A0 Other= =0A opinions?=0A>>=0A>>Dave Leonard=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Sun, Aug 5, 201= 2 at 12:42 PM, David Leonard wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Yea, min= e is an Earls cleanable high pressure with maybe 10 sq cm worth of area.=A0= Will look into the Peterson.=A0 Thanks Tracy.=0A>>>=0A>>>Dave Leonard=0A>>= >=0A>>>=0A>>>On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Tracy wr= ote:=0A>>>=0A>>>Al probably means the filter that's on factory in-tank pump= s. =A0OK, but very hard to implement on RV wet-wing tanks. =A0 I used a gas= colator for low side filter on my -4. =A0Worked OK and when it clogged, =A0= switching on the backup pump with main pump caused the screen disk to colla= pse and let fuel bypass it. =A0 which is better than no fuel at all but not= an ideal solution.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>On the -8 i used a cleanable =A0Pet= erson filter with TONS of filter area, works great. =A0 That was a replacem= ent for the Summit Racing fuel filter with a filter element disk the size o= f a nickel. =A0It clogged up in about about 5 hours of flight.=0A>>>>=0A>>>= >=0A>>>>Tracy=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>>>=0A>>>>On Aug 5, 2012, a= t 10:18 AM, David Leonard=0A wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Yes, it was the high side filter.=A0 I don't = have any low side filters.=A0 Would be interested in a source for the self-= cleaning fool-proof low side filters that Al mentions.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>-- = =0A>>>>>David Leonard=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>>>>>http://N= 4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>>>http://RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>= On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Tracy wrote:=0A>>>>>= =0A>>>>>I assume Al is referring to the pump intake side =A0filter. =A0 =A0= So for the record, was it the inlet side or the high pressure side filter t= hat clogged? =A0( Both are needed ) >From the symptoms I'm guessing high si= de but not sure.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>BTW, =A0nice job!=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>= >>>=0A>>>>>>Tracy=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>On Au= g 4, 2012, at 3:53 PM,=0A "Al Wick= " wrote:=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>As long as your are re= building, tremendous safety improvement by using same fuel filter method th= at all cars use. No matter how much foreign material you=A0throw at it, it = can't clog. It=A0minimizes pressure drop, so lower risk of vapor lock. Self= cleaning filter. Self priming pumps. =0A>>>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>>>-Al Wick=0A>>>= >>>>Cozy IV powered by RDM=0A = Subaru 3.0R. =0A>>>>>>>Expert at failure=0A = prevention methods, N9032U=0A = 240+ hours from Portland,=0A = Oregon=0A>>>>>>>Glass panel design, Subaru=0A = install, Prop construct,=0A = Risk assessment info:=0A>>>>>>>http://www.ez.org= /pages/alwick/index.htm=0A>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>>>>>Fr= om: Jeff Whaley =0A>>>>>>>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>>>>>>Sent: S= aturday, August 04, 2012 1:38 PM=0A>>>>>>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary = Forced Landing=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Dave, having gone through re= cently what you just experienced I would like to say GOOD JOB on getting do= wn safely and with such little damage.=A0 Anyway at 1500 AGL there isn't a = lot of time ... obviously you made the right choices.=0A>>>>>>>>Jeff=0A>>>>= >>>>(Rebuilding my Ride)=0A>>>>>>>>=A0=0A>>>>>>>>From: David Leonard =0A>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Fw: [FlyRotary] Rot= ary Forced Landing =0A>>>>>>>>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 06:18:47 -0700 =0A>>>>>= >>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>> =0A>>>>>>>>Sigh..=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Yup, that was=0A = me. I have been=0A = meaning to fess=0A = up. We were at=0A = about 1500 agl=0A = when the fuses=0A = blew on my fuel=0A = pumps. I was in=0A = a close=0A = formation of 40=0A = aircraft at the=0A = time too. I=0A = think I got some=0A = bad MOGAS=0A = somewhere in=0A = Iowa as I did=0A = notice my fuel=0A = return flow=0A = creep downward=0A = but didn't think=0A = it was a big=0A pro= blem. =0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>On the incident=0A = flight, a one=0A = hour formation=0A = flight from SQI=0A = for a mass=0A = arrival at OSH,=0A = the return fuel=0A = flow drifted=0A = down to zero. I=0A = actually though=0A = it was a sensor=0A = problem. I=0A = didn't have the=0A a= bility to give=0A it= a lot of=0A attenti= on=0A because we wer= e=0A in a loose=0A = formation. Soon=0A = after we pulled=0A = it together for=0A = a tight=0A = formation power=0A = switched off. I=0A = tried to find a=0A = road, but=0A = quickly ran out=0A = of options and=0A = put it down in a=0A = bean field. With=0A = the beans=0A = hitting the=0A = flaps it brought=0A = me to a stop in=0A = about 200ft,=0A = just before I=0A = would have gone=0A = into the full=0A = grown corn. As=0A = mentioned, wheel=0A = pants broke in=0A = half but no=0A othe= r damage=0A besides = pulling=0A bean leav= es out=0A of every n= ook=0A and cranny. T= he=0A farmers were= =0A very nice, and= =0A the stories are= =0A true... they=0A = have attractive=0A = daughters. They=0A = were out there=0A = barefoot in=0A = their Sunday=0A = best enjoying=0A = the excitement.=0A = Helped me clean=0A = the fuel filter=0A = and replace the=0A = fuses. Within a=0A = couple of hours=0A = I was able to=0A = take off from=0A = one of their=0A = driveways as=0A = they all waived=0A = good bye (but=0A = strangely, no=0A = one took me up=0A = on my offer for=0A = a ride).=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Landed at OSH=0A = just before dark=0A = to a reserved=0A = parking space=0A = and a very warm=0A = reception from=0A = the formation=0A = group and=0A = friends. Great=0A = support from=0A = everyone all=0A = around, though I=0A = am trying to=0A = avoid the=0A obvi= ous new call=0A sign= s they are=0A trying= to give=0A me.=0A>>= >>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>-- =0A>>>>>>>>David Leonard=0A>>>>>>>> =0AThis message, an= d the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may= contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosur= e is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, pleas= e notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please= then delete the original message. Thank you. =0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>= >=0A>>>=0A>>>-- =0A>>>David Leonard=0A>>>=0A>>>Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>>>= http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>http://RotaryRoster.net=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>= =0A>>-- =0A>>David Leonard=0A>>=0A>>Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=0A>>http://N4VY.= RotaryRoster.net=0A>>http://RotaryRoster.net=0A>> ---598724244-221182488-1344301256=:11543 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One exampl= e of a in-tank pick filter can be seen here:
http://= www.jayracing.com/index.php?main_page=3Dproduct_info&cPath=3D2_5&pr= oducts_id=3D16724

Any ru= st and junk will be picked, but once the pump is turned off, there is no mo= re suction and the junk falls to the bottom of your fuel tank.= Hence the comment "self cleaning"

<= /div>
My son's Nissan had been sitting for six years, and the fue= l tank was full of rust.  Enough flaky rust that he could= drive one mile, pull over and wait, and drive another mile.  Made it = home OK, but took a while.

Someone mentioned it previously, but just how small of a particle can be easily passed through an injector? If you are using common Ma= zda Injectors, you really do not want to filter anything smaller than the M= azda filter does.  If the injector passes a 100 micron pa= rticle without problems, there is little need for a filter  that filters down to 10  micron as it will just clog rapidly with p= oor gas. 

My L= and Cruiser spent years in the Nevada, with the amount of dirt ingested to = the tank. When I rebuilt the carb there was a lay of fine mud = in the bottom of the float bowl.  Filter passed the finest stuff so it= would  filter the big stuff. Admitted it was carb'd and = not injected... but even if you let dirt through to the injector it might not close completely for a few cycles, but would blow the dirt = out of the nozzle. Engine would remain running.
 
As part = of your annual, just pull injectors and bench flow test them.  I have = them squirt into graduated cylinders, and with a simple injector driver, yo= u can compare if they are all squirting cleanly and flow the same rates.&nb= sp; Rather than Gasoline, I prefer using mineral spirits and Techron inject= or cleaner.  Less volatile but same specific gravity, and does a decen= t job of cleaning the deposits. 

Tom

From: Dave <david.staten@g= mail.com>
To: Rotar= y motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 8:57 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Fi= lters. Was: Rotary Forced Landing

=0A
=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A
=0A
For the ignorati among us, I must ask.
=0A
=0A= How does a filter "Self clean"? How DO the car manufacturers=0A = overcome eventual filter clogging/saturation? Just by making it so=0A = dang large it never reaches that point?
=0A
=0A Dave
= =0A
=0A On 8/6/2012 8:48 AM, Al Wick wrote:
=0A
= =0A
=0A=0A =0A =0A