X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTPS id 5655919 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 12:13:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by bkcjf3 with SMTP id jf3so443406bkc.25 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:13:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=U1mYUi+MTJHjYdkWyFxm6PNMJV9aechFEzD6XP3BUCY=; b=AlG1E6vsWRCuyFwfElZsLxKORBkpPGBmiFge445CgpHEzAzEmqEZl2jiv6FJEe2r1I kCZziJl2Z6JTeEDqtbPD5TP6Oiu7T7hBWJdM5bZLdItp2Ht0YLaJh4mxqt/0XtYPgfvw jJ9sy4WnU8xSgaWy1wtnmSgT04reJWS151kF7n1NbBCzgPlj+W+bDJqWuUkbmyRvgsSM 7c49++Fn4ljreaOOw9M6NwbKIP6Nhk89mDaagCDI5IZYX20NLHG7ciqrdVbOYuWe2jFX CO+2cEUvc6unHcDLtc5/GWcYG0y5uWAXqbqtxOLTaQ8jcKfDG87NY5zFnAA//tk+YHLv ot3Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.10.92 with SMTP id o28mr1703177bko.39.1342541580688; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.81.67 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [202.40.0.40] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:13:00 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Electrical From: Andrew Martin To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cd254035f3e04c508d265 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm0IvDo++vPEpat+/dq5OVe99SwGrEFT8cSzCkRIe+PuLzVwvvUdt7S4VjNwtcGTNWi4HyM --0015175cd254035f3e04c508d265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Steve A couple of months *could* have it out of the workshop and on the strip, but work gets in the way so will probably take me a couple of years. for me, reward is in the build, finishing it will just have me start another. The 20b is sitting patiently waiting for its new airframe. it was initially acquired for the lightwing but decided this plane would never allow the 20b to see its potential so a renesis replaced it, really pleased with the renesis, started it earlier in the year, ran sweet first up, gave me so much confidence that the rotary is such a great choice, dispelled some doubts cast by the peanut gallery in the aeroclub. with what I've learnt so far with this build the next one will be brilliant. just gotta decide what to build. Put a 1200m strip on the farm back in March, now home to VH-ZOE a turboprop thrush agplane owned by a mate. the lightwing is being built in a shed 12km from the strip so first taxi could be interesting Andrew On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > Andrew > > How are you going with your homebuild? > At one stage you had a 20b didn't you? > > Cheers > > Steve Izett > > On 17/07/2012, at 6:42 PM, Andrew Martin wrote: > > Steve, your probably perfectly safe with your Alternator, chances are that > if it ever does fail it'll fail dead, I've just had a few alternator > failures on trucks and tractors that I wouldn't like to see happen in the > plane, so for me the B&C LM3 regulator looked like a fairly easy solution > to being able to shut the Alt down. My sparkie suggested using the biggest > alternator I could fit as he said having an Alternator that is working > closer to its capacity is more likely to fail than a lightly loaded one. > > As for your questions, it all depends on what your comfortable with. > > > Andrew > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > >> Thanks Andrew >> >> I have all those diagrams etc. >> Over the years I have built up a respect for Tracy and some others in >> this list for their thinking and keeping things simple. >> >> Your opinion is pretty much in line with what I was thinking in regard to >> the Battery being a backup to the Alt. >> The Renesis alt was big and bulky so I replaced it with a small one and >> cant remember what it was out of. >> I'll do a load test once I've got all systems working. >> Why did you convert to external regulation? I thought the vehicle >> alternators were pretty clean and reliable? >> >> What I am struggling with is: >> Modern auto electric systems just don't fail very often (Has any one here >> had a failure of basic circuit feeds?) >> Redundancy can introduce other failure modes or possible complexity in an >> emergency. >> When I trained twenty five years ago on the ILS system at Perth Airport, >> if my memory serves me right, the main reason for the system being down was >> the arbitrator failing, not the actual A and B systems. >> Hey I'm going to go with the experts like lectric Bob. >> Just want to KIS. >> >> Questions: >> Is there a reliable modern replacement to the old, huge, heavy contactors? >> Redundancy of Fuel pumps (a given) >> Redundancy of Alternator (happy to manage the risk of losing it with >> voltage and current alarms) >> Redundancy of EFI/IGN (managed by EC2?) >> It seem to me to come back to the redundancy of the main battery system. >> So: >> Single Alternator, Battery system, Auto Key switch (replacing battery >> annually, clear current and voltage alarms). >> OR >> Single Alternator and dual Batteries (this then introduces (Z-19) 2 >> contactors, a diode and three switches. >> >> Please have mercy on me, if I don't understand! >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Steve Izett >> >> >> >> Steve Izett >> On 17/07/2012, at 2:21 PM, Andrew Martin wrote: >> >> Steve >> Have you got a copy of Bob Nuckolls Book? Along with Tracy's diagrams in >> his ec2/3 manual you'll have all the infomation you require >> >> What alternator are you using? I ended up using a 60 or 70 amp unit out >> of a subaru and converted it to external regulation as the 100amp unit that >> came with the renesis was going to be a real bugger to make work. cannot >> remember the details now but at the time it seemed like half the regulator >> was in the alt and half in the cars EC(which I didn't have). >> >> My 2c opinion is that the Alternator is the main source of power, the >> battery is a backup. so battery should be sized to suit your desired >> Alternator off endurance, which will be specific to your aircrafts minimum >> electric power consumption. If your ever planing on flying east or up north >> from Perth I'd suggest to try for 3-4 hours battery endurance just to make >> sure you can safely make a landing area near civilization. >> >> Andrew Martin >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: >> >>> Tracy >>> >>> Have you got any further with your electrical wiring description you >>> mentioned earlier. >>> Also, what setup do you have in the RV4 & 8 ? >>> What battery/s electrical system do you employ? >>> >>> Steve Izett >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Regards > > Andrew Martin > Martin Ag > 275 Newmarracarra Rd > Moonyoonooka WA 6532 > > 0427477144 > 08 99241145 > andrew@martinag.com.au > > > -- Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag 275 Newmarracarra Rd Moonyoonooka WA 6532 0427477144 08 99241145 andrew@martinag.com.au --0015175cd254035f3e04c508d265 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve
A couple of months could have it out of the workshop and on= the strip, but work gets in the way so will probably take me a couple of y= ears. for me, reward is in the build, finishing it will just have me start = another.
The 20b is sitting patiently waiting for its new airframe. it was initially= acquired for the lightwing but decided this plane would never allow the 20= b to see its potential so a renesis replaced it, really pleased with the re= nesis, started it earlier in the year, ran sweet first up, gave me so much = confidence that the rotary is such a great choice, dispelled some doubts ca= st by the peanut gallery in the aeroclub. with what I've learnt so far = with this build the next one will be brilliant. just gotta decide what to b= uild.

Put a 1200m strip on the farm back in March, now home to VH-ZOE a turbo= prop thrush agplane owned by a mate. the lightwing is being built in a shed= 12km from the strip so first taxi could be interesting

Andrew

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Stephen Ize= tt <steveizett@me.com> wrote:
Andrew

How are you g= oing with your homebuild?
At one stage you had a 20b didn't y= ou?

Cheers

Steve Izett

On 17/07/2012, at 6:42 PM, Andrew Martin wr= ote:

Steve, your probably perfectly safe= with your Alternator, chances are that if it ever does fail it'll fail= dead, I've just had a few alternator failures on trucks and tractors t= hat I wouldn't like to see happen in the plane, so for me the B&C L= M3 regulator looked like a fairly easy solution to being able to shut the A= lt down. My sparkie suggested using the biggest alternator I could fit as h= e said having an Alternator that is working closer to its capacity is more = likely to fail than a lightly loaded one.

As for your questions, it all depends on what your comfortable with.

Andrew

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3= :06 PM, Stephen Izett <steveizett@me.com> wrote:
Thanks A= ndrew

I have all those diagrams etc.
Over the = years I have built up a respect for Tracy and some others in this list for = their thinking and keeping things simple.

Your opinion is pretty much in line with what I was thi= nking in regard to the Battery being a backup to the Alt.
The Ren= esis alt was big and bulky so I replaced it with a small one and cant remem= ber what it was out of.
I'll do a load test once I've got all systems working.
Why did you convert to external regulation? I thought the vehicle altern= ators were pretty clean and reliable?=A0

What I am= struggling with is:
Modern auto electric systems just don't fail very often (Has any o= ne here had a failure of basic circuit feeds?)
Redundancy can int= roduce other failure modes or possible complexity in an emergency.
When I trained twenty five years ago on the ILS system at Perth Airpor= t, if my memory serves me right, the main reason for the system being down = was the arbitrator failing, not the actual A and B systems.
Hey I'm going to go with the experts like lectric Bob.
Just want to KIS.

Questions:
Is the= re a reliable modern replacement to the old, huge, heavy contactors?
<= div>Redundancy of Fuel pumps (a given)
Redundancy of Alternator (= happy to manage the risk of losing it with voltage and current alarms)
Redundancy of EFI/IGN (managed by EC2?)
It seem to me to com= e back to the redundancy of the main battery system.
So:
Single Alternator, Battery s= ystem, Auto Key switch (replacing battery annually, clear current and volta= ge alarms).=A0
OR
Single Alter= nator and dual Batteries (this then introduces (Z-19) 2 contactors, a diode= and three switches.

Please have mercy on me, if I= don't understand!


Cheers

Steve Iz= ett



Steve Izett
On 17/07/2012, at 2:21 PM, Andrew Martin wrote:
Steve
Have you got a copy of Bob Nuckolls= =A0 Book? Along with Tracy's diagrams in his ec2/3 manual you'll ha= ve all the infomation you require

What alternator are you using? I e= nded up using a 60 or 70 amp unit out of a subaru and converted it to exter= nal regulation as the 100amp unit that came with the renesis was going to b= e a real bugger to make work. cannot remember the details now but at the ti= me it seemed like half the regulator was in the alt and half in the cars EC= (which I didn't have).

My 2c opinion is that the Alternator is the main source of power, the b= attery is a backup. so battery should be sized to suit your desired Alterna= tor off endurance, which will be specific to your aircrafts minimum electri= c power consumption. If your ever planing on flying east or up north from P= erth I'd suggest to try for 3-4 hours battery endurance just to make su= re you can safely make a landing area near civilization.

Andrew Martin


On Tue, Jul 17, 201= 2 at 12:55 PM, Stephen Izett <steveizett@me.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Tracy

Have you got any further with your electrical wiring description you mentio= ned earlier.
Also, what setup do you have in the RV4 & 8 ?
What battery/s electrical system do you employ?

Steve Izett

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html





--
Regards

Andrew Martin
Martin Ag
275 Ne= wmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA 6532

0427477144
08 9= 9241145
andrew@martinag= .com.au




--
Regards

Andrew M= artin
Martin Ag
275 Newmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA 6532

0= 427477144
08 99241145
andre= w@martinag.com.au
--0015175cd254035f3e04c508d265--