X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTPS id 5655126 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 06:42:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by bkcjf3 with SMTP id jf3so149440bkc.25 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 03:42:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=dVYEwx7kc6eLnWZmQiVyM889WTCR177eeoGARLoE7LM=; b=WPjaazICyeCNitOQLdgOKQfTL1y0h5I2ZuBqhOa7Ct8+Oub0fKqB9n1ney2HLlf3hy L3xs/sfojAclE6lsRS6Gbd8BrzCm3gFsmuFMCxflHdYns6NCt9+bR+icGKpmnBEr2en6 4653Td85SmCO5PmBUPJl1uKS0iEY9GqWRXBvjic7CSsP8Y1GrE2zn8Wcel1cXLRrcuLc R5QeW0bzU2WsdqjM+p4LemcaxpNuKldUxMgZJbS33sPEC6mZQkgw0pECYYeRDKYQ/OwG p3FgK9Rh7a+YGGd8tegJxhBJJ7W9K6mWeLRKdETDNqdPF3mg5rcsvdst0GExrNe9GqHa T3JQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.155.146 with SMTP id s18mr843244bkw.23.1342521736245; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 03:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.81.67 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 03:42:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [202.40.0.40] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 18:42:16 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Electrical From: Andrew Martin To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cd09831312104c504334a X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlO2QFFeSPFz9G9GS5DdwUYwph0S04LYaJGUW8vEIsSwD8YuwMOpKTi+wMOn44GViJpYPdF --0015175cd09831312104c504334a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Steve, your probably perfectly safe with your Alternator, chances are that if it ever does fail it'll fail dead, I've just had a few alternator failures on trucks and tractors that I wouldn't like to see happen in the plane, so for me the B&C LM3 regulator looked like a fairly easy solution to being able to shut the Alt down. My sparkie suggested using the biggest alternator I could fit as he said having an Alternator that is working closer to its capacity is more likely to fail than a lightly loaded one. As for your questions, it all depends on what your comfortable with. Andrew On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > Thanks Andrew > > I have all those diagrams etc. > Over the years I have built up a respect for Tracy and some others in this > list for their thinking and keeping things simple. > > Your opinion is pretty much in line with what I was thinking in regard to > the Battery being a backup to the Alt. > The Renesis alt was big and bulky so I replaced it with a small one and > cant remember what it was out of. > I'll do a load test once I've got all systems working. > Why did you convert to external regulation? I thought the vehicle > alternators were pretty clean and reliable? > > What I am struggling with is: > Modern auto electric systems just don't fail very often (Has any one here > had a failure of basic circuit feeds?) > Redundancy can introduce other failure modes or possible complexity in an > emergency. > When I trained twenty five years ago on the ILS system at Perth Airport, > if my memory serves me right, the main reason for the system being down was > the arbitrator failing, not the actual A and B systems. > Hey I'm going to go with the experts like lectric Bob. > Just want to KIS. > > Questions: > Is there a reliable modern replacement to the old, huge, heavy contactors? > Redundancy of Fuel pumps (a given) > Redundancy of Alternator (happy to manage the risk of losing it with > voltage and current alarms) > Redundancy of EFI/IGN (managed by EC2?) > It seem to me to come back to the redundancy of the main battery system. > So: > Single Alternator, Battery system, Auto Key switch (replacing battery > annually, clear current and voltage alarms). > OR > Single Alternator and dual Batteries (this then introduces (Z-19) 2 > contactors, a diode and three switches. > > Please have mercy on me, if I don't understand! > > > Cheers > > Steve Izett > > > > Steve Izett > On 17/07/2012, at 2:21 PM, Andrew Martin wrote: > > Steve > Have you got a copy of Bob Nuckolls Book? Along with Tracy's diagrams in > his ec2/3 manual you'll have all the infomation you require > > What alternator are you using? I ended up using a 60 or 70 amp unit out of > a subaru and converted it to external regulation as the 100amp unit that > came with the renesis was going to be a real bugger to make work. cannot > remember the details now but at the time it seemed like half the regulator > was in the alt and half in the cars EC(which I didn't have). > > My 2c opinion is that the Alternator is the main source of power, the > battery is a backup. so battery should be sized to suit your desired > Alternator off endurance, which will be specific to your aircrafts minimum > electric power consumption. If your ever planing on flying east or up north > from Perth I'd suggest to try for 3-4 hours battery endurance just to make > sure you can safely make a landing area near civilization. > > Andrew Martin > > > On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > >> Tracy >> >> Have you got any further with your electrical wiring description you >> mentioned earlier. >> Also, what setup do you have in the RV4 & 8 ? >> What battery/s electrical system do you employ? >> >> Steve Izett >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > > -- Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag 275 Newmarracarra Rd Moonyoonooka WA 6532 0427477144 08 99241145 andrew@martinag.com.au --0015175cd09831312104c504334a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, your probably perfectly safe with your Alternator, chances are that = if it ever does fail it'll fail dead, I've just had a few alternato= r failures on trucks and tractors that I wouldn't like to see happen in= the plane, so for me the B&C LM3 regulator looked like a fairly easy s= olution to being able to shut the Alt down. My sparkie suggested using the = biggest alternator I could fit as he said having an Alternator that is work= ing closer to its capacity is more likely to fail than a lightly loaded one= .

As for your questions, it all depends on what your comfortable with.

Andrew

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3= :06 PM, Stephen Izett <steveizett@me.com> wrote:
Thanks A= ndrew

I have all those diagrams etc.
Over the = years I have built up a respect for Tracy and some others in this list for = their thinking and keeping things simple.

Your opinion is pretty much in line with what I was thi= nking in regard to the Battery being a backup to the Alt.
The Ren= esis alt was big and bulky so I replaced it with a small one and cant remem= ber what it was out of.
I'll do a load test once I've got all systems working.
Why did you convert to external regulation? I thought the vehicle altern= ators were pretty clean and reliable?=A0

What I am= struggling with is:
Modern auto electric systems just don't fail very often (Has any o= ne here had a failure of basic circuit feeds?)
Redundancy can int= roduce other failure modes or possible complexity in an emergency.
When I trained twenty five years ago on the ILS system at Perth Airpor= t, if my memory serves me right, the main reason for the system being down = was the arbitrator failing, not the actual A and B systems.
Hey I'm going to go with the experts like lectric Bob.
Just want to KIS.

Questions:
Is the= re a reliable modern replacement to the old, huge, heavy contactors?
<= div>Redundancy of Fuel pumps (a given)
Redundancy of Alternator (= happy to manage the risk of losing it with voltage and current alarms)
Redundancy of EFI/IGN (managed by EC2?)
It seem to me to com= e back to the redundancy of the main battery system.
So:
Single Alternator, Battery s= ystem, Auto Key switch (replacing battery annually, clear current and volta= ge alarms).=A0
OR
Single Alter= nator and dual Batteries (this then introduces (Z-19) 2 contactors, a diode= and three switches.

Please have mercy on me, if I= don't understand!


Cheers

Steve Iz= ett



Steve Izett
On 17/07/2012, at 2:21 PM, Andrew Martin wrote:
Steve
Have you got a copy of Bob Nuckolls= =A0 Book? Along with Tracy's diagrams in his ec2/3 manual you'll ha= ve all the infomation you require

What alternator are you using? I e= nded up using a 60 or 70 amp unit out of a subaru and converted it to exter= nal regulation as the 100amp unit that came with the renesis was going to b= e a real bugger to make work. cannot remember the details now but at the ti= me it seemed like half the regulator was in the alt and half in the cars EC= (which I didn't have).

My 2c opinion is that the Alternator is the main source of power, the b= attery is a backup. so battery should be sized to suit your desired Alterna= tor off endurance, which will be specific to your aircrafts minimum electri= c power consumption. If your ever planing on flying east or up north from P= erth I'd suggest to try for 3-4 hours battery endurance just to make su= re you can safely make a landing area near civilization.

Andrew Martin


On Tue, Jul 17, 201= 2 at 12:55 PM, Stephen Izett <steveizett@me.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Tracy

Have you got any further with your electrical wiring description you mentio= ned earlier.
Also, what setup do you have in the RV4 & 8 ?
What battery/s electrical system do you employ?

Steve Izett

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html





--
Regards

Andrew Martin
Martin Ag
275 Ne= wmarracarra Rd
Moonyoonooka WA 6532

0427477144
08 9= 9241145
andrew@martinag= .com.au
--0015175cd09831312104c504334a--