X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTPS id 5570809 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 May 2012 12:29:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bkcjc3 with SMTP id jc3so986020bkc.25 for ; Thu, 31 May 2012 09:29:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=KFt13QBSWj/eGOcX83Rs//F8tBsgTIVLXB7ylGfQYHU=; b=R0XF+OpGsV5fjQ/p6e/lhEcwSlAaFGaYy6sMDR7OgTtNweJnJEyobBEhCoQRJ8YuYz TpdYp1Gl3Tw+RRArRNYy0eHUx9jHLJUoHUQHhZX+RBWJDpcxYRO7h2avk3bPOwbJiQGu p3AJ+V4XoAm3ObJ9gpiQYPsJi1LBkQ3Jyq2++2TIJTPa1oo2dN68nkkbBlciFn8zaXgl eRB1TplrISpHTZTaGlf00s/ZFNQLJDs+MIAfCe7/y1os3OiQYm85YyVJRSrN86Y6mkSI mSioolFdSD4NkRLczhJPlUe7YDyKpw80EMYar5wepwhFITeLNBZcosah2UIFzeIxCM6l LiYA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.150 with SMTP id x22mr1996363bkw.55.1338481746378; Thu, 31 May 2012 09:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.97.194 with HTTP; Thu, 31 May 2012 09:29:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:29:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175924e20801c504c157910f --0015175924e20801c504c157910f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tracy, At one time there was problem with #1 rotor cutting out at low rpm, but I attribute that to other causes. If you recall, I sent you the #1 rotor apex seals for your opinion on why they had scratches/grooves in them. I have since re-assembled the engine with new apex seals and replaced the slide-throttle with a new TB intake. This was done to re-locate the primary injectors downstream of the butterflies and to get a better balance between each rotor. Idle is now much improved with the new intake, but tuning the mid-range has been troublesome. I think we're close now that we've identified the #1 rotor to be running way rich. Also, I misinterpreted your Mode 4/5 instructions, so I wasn't changing what I thought I was changing. Now that I understand how Mode 4/5 works, I've had some measure of success. We are unsure as to the cause of the rich mixtures on #1 rotor though. I'll try removing the BMA EFIS wire this weekend, and check the diodes for proper function. Thanks, Mark On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Tracy wrote: > Mark, > I may not have followed all the turns in this thread. I thought it was > an idle/low throttle mixture imbalance. I'll have to review the thread. > But the disabling of the primaries would be a good test to run anyway. > The suggestions others have made on the Blue Mountain tach line problem was > something I thought of as well. Also make sure all the isolation diodes > used on the EC-2 version of 20B controller are good (not shorted, etc.) > The EC3 does not use the isolation diodes since it has 6 independent > drivers. > > Yes, I always look at the injector driver signals when updating all > units. > > Tracy > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > >> Tracy, >> >> Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for primary and >> secondary injectors. I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on the >> secondaries only, and I don't really understand what this has to do with >> my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. But I can run the test >> anyway. >> >> Q: When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you look at the >> fuel injector signals? What would you suspect as to the cause of an extra >> rich mixture in one rotor? >> >> Mark >> >> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy wrote: >> >>> Mark, >>> If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you have to >>> do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the >>> secondaries automatically. You may have to be ready on the mixture >>> control to lean it out when you switch over since your secondaries are >>> larger. >>> >>> Tracy >>> >>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>> >>>> I don't know if it does. I've never tried idling on the secondaries >>>> with this intake. My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for >>>> primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800 >>>> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. But I >>>> attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of >>>> the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle >>>> settings. Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the >>>> butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. As I >>>> said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the >>>> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving >>>> the idle characteristics. It appears that I accomplished that goal. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz wrote: >>>> > How does it idle on secondaries? >>>> > >>>> > Bill Schertz >>>> > KIS Cruiser #4045 >>>> > N343BS >>>> > Phase one testing Completed >>>> > >>>> > From: Mark Steitle >>>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM >>>> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing >>>> > >>>> > Ernest, >>>> > >>>> > With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my >>>> side-port >>>> > motor ever did. It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although I >>>> > normally idle at 1500-1600. Still, it might be an interesting >>>> experiment to >>>> > add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have >>>> on >>>> > tuning. >>>> > >>>> > If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue >>>> fuel >>>> > rail. This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. >>>> They're >>>> > located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports >>>> and >>>> > pointed directly at the rotor faces. I can't imagine how the fuel >>>> could >>>> > find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other >>>> runners. I've >>>> > never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. I don't see how >>>> the >>>> > fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. >>>> But >>>> > then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either. >>>> > >>>> > Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals >>>> with >>>> > this latest intake. My previous slide throttle had both the primary >>>> and >>>> > secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. This caused fuel >>>> > pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. Needless to say, >>>> this >>>> > made low throttle tuning almost impossible. So, the new intake has >>>> the >>>> > primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >>>> > >>>> > Mark >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley >>> > >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Mark Steitle wrote: >>>> > > Ernest, >>>> > > >>>> > > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors are >>>> after the >>>> > > airbox (see attached pic). >>>> > > >>>> > > Mark >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious >>>> > standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and >>>> > let it stick to the walls. You're set-up is very similar to mine, >>>> in that >>>> > the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass >>>> > in front of one runner before reaching the others. Some of that >>>> suspended >>>> > fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel >>>> > down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed >>>> back to >>>> > the rear (which will then be running over rich). >>>> > >>>> > It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the >>>> runners. >>>> > Dollars to donuts that the first runner's >>>> > inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one. >>>> > >>>> > I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed >>>> whatever was >>>> > wrong. I inserted a plate so that the runners >>>> > could not "see" the air intake. The air hits the plate and spreads >>>> out >>>> > before heading to the runners directly, instead >>>> > of flying past the first on the way to the second. >>>> > >>>> > Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a >>>> slot >>>> > halfway through the plenum between the runners. >>>> > Then I would slide a partition between them. It would essentially >>>> create >>>> > three stalls that the runners originate from. >>>> > The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner on >>>> the >>>> > way to the second. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> > Archive and UnSub: >>>> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub: >>>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>> >>> >>> >> > --0015175924e20801c504c157910f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy,=A0

At one time there was problem with #1 rotor cu= tting out at low rpm, but I attribute that to other causes. =A0If you recal= l, I sent you the #1 rotor apex seals for your opinion on why they had scra= tches/grooves in them. =A0I have since re-assembled the engine with new ape= x seals and replaced the slide-throttle with a new TB intake. =A0This was d= one=A0to re-locate the primary injectors downstream of the butterflies=A0an= d to get a better balance between each rotor. =A0Idle is now much improved = with the new intake, but tuning the mid-range has been troublesome. =A0I th= ink we're close now that we've identified the #1 rotor to be runnin= g way rich. =A0Also, I misinterpreted your Mode 4/5 instructions, so I wasn= 't changing what I thought I was changing. =A0Now that I understand how= Mode 4/5 works, I've had some measure of success. =A0We are unsure as = to the cause of the rich mixtures on #1 rotor though. =A0I'll try remov= ing the BMA EFIS wire this weekend, and check the diodes for proper functio= n.

Thanks,
Mark

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Mark,
I may not have followed all the tur= ns in this thread. =A0 I thought it was an idle/low throttle mixture imbala= nce. =A0 I'll have to review the thread.=A0 But the disabling of the pr= imaries would be a good test to run anyway. =A0 =A0 The suggestions others = have made on the Blue Mountain tach line problem was something I thought of= as well.=A0 Also make sure all the isolation diodes used on the EC-2 versi= on of=A0 20B controller are good (not shorted, etc.)=A0 The EC3 does not us= e the isolation diodes since it has 6 independent drivers.

Yes, I always look at the injector driver signals when updating all uni= ts.=A0

Tracy

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Tracy,=A0=

Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switch= es for primary and secondary injectors. =A0I just haven't tried to see = if it will idle on the secondaries only, =A0and I don't really understa= nd what this has to do with my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. = =A0But I can run the test anyway.=A0

Q: =A0When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2&= #39;s do you look at the fuel injector signals? =A0What would you suspect a= s to the cause of an extra rich mixture in one rotor? =A0

Mark=A0

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Mark,
If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you h= ave to do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the sec= ondaries automatically.=A0=A0 You may have to be ready on the mixture contr= ol to lean it out when you switch over=A0 since your secondaries are larger= .

Tracy

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if it does. =A0I've never tried idling on the secondar= ies
with this intake. =A0My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for
primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800<= br> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. =A0But I
attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of
the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle
settings. =A0Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the
butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. =A0As I said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the
primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving
the idle characteristics. =A0It appears that I accomplished that goal.

Mark

On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net> wrote:
> How does it idle on secondaries?
>
> Bill Schertz
> KIS Cruiser #4045
> N343BS
> Phase one testing Completed
>
> From: Mark Steitle
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing
>
> Ernest,
>
> With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my side-po= rt
> motor ever did. =A0It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although= I
> normally idle at 1500-1600. =A0Still, it might be an interesting exper= iment to
> add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have = on
> tuning.
>
> If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue = fuel
> rail. =A0This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. = =A0They're
> located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports = and
> pointed directly at the rotor faces. =A0I can't imagine how the fu= el could
> find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other run= ners. =A0I've
> never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. =A0I don't see= how the
> fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. = =A0But
> then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either.
>
> Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals wi= th
> this latest intake. =A0My previous slide throttle had both the primary= and
> secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. =A0This caused fuel=
> pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. =A0Needless to say,= this
> made low throttle tuning almost impossible. =A0So, the new intake has = the
> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> =A0 Mark Steitle wrote:
> =A0 > Ernest,
> =A0 >
> =A0 > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors = are after the
> =A0 > airbox (see attached pic).
> =A0 >
> =A0 > Mark
>
>
> =A0 At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious=
> standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and
> =A0 let it stick to the walls. =A0You're set-up is very similar to= mine, in that
> the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass
> =A0 in front of one runner before reaching the others. =A0Some of that= suspended
> fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel
> =A0 down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed = back to
> the rear (which will then be running over rich).
>
> =A0 It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the r= unners.
> Dollars to donuts that the first runner's
> =A0 inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one.
>
> =A0 I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatev= er was
> wrong. =A0I inserted a plate so that the runners
> =A0 could not "see" the air intake. =A0The air hits the plat= e and spreads out
> before heading to the runners directly, instead
> =A0 of flying past the first on the way to the second.
>
> =A0 Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a s= lot
> halfway through the plenum between the runners.
> =A0 Then I would slide a partition between them. =A0It would essential= ly create
> three stalls that the runners originate from.
> =A0 The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner o= n the
> way to the second.
>
>
> =A0 --
> =A0 Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
> =A0 Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml
>
>

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html




--0015175924e20801c504c157910f--