X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTPS id 5570695 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 May 2012 11:53:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by lahj13 with SMTP id j13so731979lah.25 for ; Thu, 31 May 2012 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=eEJ+J4nXHUh9Ln1FQv46jETlxtsBWOceGBLn2soqWg8=; b=E/7fnfwjuIUjH4YnNatBN3UJcfX774aAB0g0Y/jKwgtqOWOixNPnLTDqiN//K4AO6I EsaByYUIcAkyEMzdUdBf9tDF4lnuFSM8JimgaUkPqgn9qHakc5YShO7lxUQ2FMg9Ou1s o3IJWe8IgBo9BNvl+7D1uUmIm7OZ8dCTP6YnDbYoXuj6IsdHS82TzZG+rcu7fwZTlN8h qWgl2MaO2I5LXukanEA8CT/1x89J2Z9E8boOreuXUae1Kjf/ElCTx38eDQp+VtJ+vFUv GRbkxaLtIRG4JepCiWcnJksN0q4DAod5PDg7kNCVighIwDt9I/IBpxXTQU2rF/CcFKTZ TXLA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.48.37 with SMTP id i5mr20452685lan.36.1338479598425; Thu, 31 May 2012 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.4.101 with HTTP; Thu, 31 May 2012 08:53:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 11:53:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec552398000d7e504c157119b --bcaec552398000d7e504c157119b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Mark, I may not have followed all the turns in this thread. I thought it was an idle/low throttle mixture imbalance. I'll have to review the thread. But the disabling of the primaries would be a good test to run anyway. The suggestions others have made on the Blue Mountain tach line problem was something I thought of as well. Also make sure all the isolation diodes used on the EC-2 version of 20B controller are good (not shorted, etc.) The EC3 does not use the isolation diodes since it has 6 independent drivers. Yes, I always look at the injector driver signals when updating all units. Tracy On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Tracy, > > Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for primary and > secondary injectors. I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on the > secondaries only, and I don't really understand what this has to do with > my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. But I can run the test > anyway. > > Q: When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you look at the fuel > injector signals? What would you suspect as to the cause of an extra rich > mixture in one rotor? > > Mark > > On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy wrote: > >> Mark, >> If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you have to >> do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the >> secondaries automatically. You may have to be ready on the mixture >> control to lean it out when you switch over since your secondaries are >> larger. >> >> Tracy >> >> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >>> I don't know if it does. I've never tried idling on the secondaries >>> with this intake. My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for >>> primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800 >>> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. But I >>> attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of >>> the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle >>> settings. Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the >>> butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. As I >>> said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the >>> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving >>> the idle characteristics. It appears that I accomplished that goal. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz wrote: >>> > How does it idle on secondaries? >>> > >>> > Bill Schertz >>> > KIS Cruiser #4045 >>> > N343BS >>> > Phase one testing Completed >>> > >>> > From: Mark Steitle >>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM >>> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing >>> > >>> > Ernest, >>> > >>> > With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my >>> side-port >>> > motor ever did. It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although I >>> > normally idle at 1500-1600. Still, it might be an interesting >>> experiment to >>> > add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have >>> on >>> > tuning. >>> > >>> > If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue >>> fuel >>> > rail. This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. >>> They're >>> > located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports >>> and >>> > pointed directly at the rotor faces. I can't imagine how the fuel >>> could >>> > find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other runners. >>> I've >>> > never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. I don't see how >>> the >>> > fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. >>> But >>> > then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either. >>> > >>> > Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals >>> with >>> > this latest intake. My previous slide throttle had both the primary >>> and >>> > secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. This caused fuel >>> > pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. Needless to say, >>> this >>> > made low throttle tuning almost impossible. So, the new intake has the >>> > primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >>> > >>> > Mark >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Mark Steitle wrote: >>> > > Ernest, >>> > > >>> > > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors are after >>> the >>> > > airbox (see attached pic). >>> > > >>> > > Mark >>> > >>> > >>> > At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious >>> > standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and >>> > let it stick to the walls. You're set-up is very similar to mine, >>> in that >>> > the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass >>> > in front of one runner before reaching the others. Some of that >>> suspended >>> > fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel >>> > down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed >>> back to >>> > the rear (which will then be running over rich). >>> > >>> > It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the >>> runners. >>> > Dollars to donuts that the first runner's >>> > inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one. >>> > >>> > I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatever >>> was >>> > wrong. I inserted a plate so that the runners >>> > could not "see" the air intake. The air hits the plate and spreads >>> out >>> > before heading to the runners directly, instead >>> > of flying past the first on the way to the second. >>> > >>> > Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a slot >>> > halfway through the plenum between the runners. >>> > Then I would slide a partition between them. It would essentially >>> create >>> > three stalls that the runners originate from. >>> > The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner on >>> the >>> > way to the second. >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> > Archive and UnSub: >>> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub: >>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> >> >> > --bcaec552398000d7e504c157119b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark,
I may not have followed all the turns in this thread. =A0 I though= t it was an idle/low throttle mixture imbalance. =A0 I'll have to revie= w the thread.=A0 But the disabling of the primaries would be a good test to= run anyway. =A0 =A0 The suggestions others have made on the Blue Mountain = tach line problem was something I thought of as well.=A0 Also make sure all= the isolation diodes used on the EC-2 version of=A0 20B controller are goo= d (not shorted, etc.)=A0 The EC3 does not use the isolation diodes since it= has 6 independent drivers.

Yes, I always look at the injector driver signals when updating all uni= ts.=A0

Tracy

On Thu, May 31, 2012= at 7:23 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,=A0

Yes it is wired= per your schematic with separate switches for primary and secondary inject= ors. =A0I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on the secondaries = only, =A0and I don't really understand what this has to do with my curr= ent issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. =A0But I can run the test anyway.=A0<= /div>

Q: =A0When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2&= #39;s do you look at the fuel injector signals? =A0What would you suspect a= s to the cause of an extra rich mixture in one rotor? =A0

Mark=A0

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19= PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark,
If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you h= ave to do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the sec= ondaries automatically.=A0=A0 You may have to be ready on the mixture contr= ol to lean it out when you switch over=A0 since your secondaries are larger= .

Tracy

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 A= M, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if it does. =A0I've never tried idling on the secondar= ies
with this intake. =A0My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for
primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800<= br> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. =A0But I
attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of
the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle
settings. =A0Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the
butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. =A0As I said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the
primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving
the idle characteristics. =A0It appears that I accomplished that goal.

Mark

On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net> wrote:
> How does it idle on secondaries?
>
> Bill Schertz
> KIS Cruiser #4045
> N343BS
> Phase one testing Completed
>
> From: Mark Steitle
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing
>
> Ernest,
>
> With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my side-po= rt
> motor ever did. =A0It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although= I
> normally idle at 1500-1600. =A0Still, it might be an interesting exper= iment to
> add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have = on
> tuning.
>
> If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue = fuel
> rail. =A0This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. = =A0They're
> located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports = and
> pointed directly at the rotor faces. =A0I can't imagine how the fu= el could
> find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other run= ners. =A0I've
> never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. =A0I don't see= how the
> fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. = =A0But
> then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either.
>
> Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals wi= th
> this latest intake. =A0My previous slide throttle had both the primary= and
> secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. =A0This caused fuel=
> pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. =A0Needless to say,= this
> made low throttle tuning almost impossible. =A0So, the new intake has = the
> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> =A0 Mark Steitle wrote:
> =A0 > Ernest,
> =A0 >
> =A0 > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors = are after the
> =A0 > airbox (see attached pic).
> =A0 >
> =A0 > Mark
>
>
> =A0 At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious=
> standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and
> =A0 let it stick to the walls. =A0You're set-up is very similar to= mine, in that
> the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass
> =A0 in front of one runner before reaching the others. =A0Some of that= suspended
> fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel
> =A0 down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed = back to
> the rear (which will then be running over rich).
>
> =A0 It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the r= unners.
> Dollars to donuts that the first runner's
> =A0 inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one.
>
> =A0 I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatev= er was
> wrong. =A0I inserted a plate so that the runners
> =A0 could not "see" the air intake. =A0The air hits the plat= e and spreads out
> before heading to the runners directly, instead
> =A0 of flying past the first on the way to the second.
>
> =A0 Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a s= lot
> halfway through the plenum between the runners.
> =A0 Then I would slide a partition between them. =A0It would essential= ly create
> three stalls that the runners originate from.
> =A0 The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner o= n the
> way to the second.
>
>
> =A0 --
> =A0 Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
> =A0 Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml
>
>

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html



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