X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.27.227] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTP id 5570351 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 May 2012 09:49:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.27.227; envelope-from=wschertz@comcast.net Received: from omta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.36]) by qmta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id GdJQ1j0040mlR8UACdozxt; Thu, 31 May 2012 13:48:59 +0000 Received: from WschertzPC ([71.57.77.95]) by omta11.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Gdox1j00Z23NHuF8Xdoydo; Thu, 31 May 2012 13:48:58 +0000 Message-ID: <87528CF364F746319B4901842ADFC85D@WschertzPC> From: "Bill Schertz" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 08:48:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01CD3F0A.36C0A4B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CD3F0A.36C0A4B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, The reason that I asked the question about idle on the secondary = injectors is that when I first started the engine, with a Blue Mountain = EFIS, I found that the engine ran very rich on the primaries, which were = preferred by the EC-2 at idle, but when I switched to the secondary = injectors the engine smoothed out. This led to the investigation of why, = since all my injectors were the same size. I then found the problem with = the BMA tach signal holding an injector open (or causing it to close = slowly) that was fixed with Tracy=E2=80=99s recommendation of a 2K = resistor in the line to limit the current draw from the BMA. Just a = diagnostic. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS 77 hours From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:23 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing Tracy, =20 Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for primary = and secondary injectors. I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on = the secondaries only, and I don't really understand what this has to do = with my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. But I can run the = test anyway.=20 Q: When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you look at the = fuel injector signals? What would you suspect as to the cause of an = extra rich mixture in one rotor? =20 Mark=20 On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy wrote: Mark, If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you have = to do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the = secondaries automatically. You may have to be ready on the mixture = control to lean it out when you switch over since your secondaries are = larger. Tracy On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle = wrote: I don't know if it does. I've never tried idling on the secondaries with this intake. My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... = 1800 rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. But I attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle settings. Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. As I said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position = the primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of = improving the idle characteristics. It appears that I accomplished that goal. Mark On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz wrote: > How does it idle on secondaries? > > Bill Schertz > KIS Cruiser #4045 > N343BS > Phase one testing Completed > > From: Mark Steitle > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing > > Ernest, > > With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my = side-port > motor ever did. It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, = although I > normally idle at 1500-1600. Still, it might be an interesting = experiment to > add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would = have on > tuning. > > If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the = blue fuel > rail. This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary = injectors. They're > located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake = ports and > pointed directly at the rotor faces. I can't imagine how the fuel = could > find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other = runners. I've > never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. I don't see = how the > fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 = rpm. But > then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either. > > Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design = goals with > this latest intake. My previous slide throttle had both the = primary and > secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. This caused = fuel > pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. Needless to = say, this > made low throttle tuning almost impossible. So, the new intake = has the > primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles = great. > > Mark > > > > > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley = > wrote: > > Mark Steitle wrote: > > Ernest, > > > > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors are = after the > > airbox (see attached pic). > > > > Mark > > > At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some = serious > standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and > let it stick to the walls. You're set-up is very similar to = mine, in that > the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass > in front of one runner before reaching the others. Some of that = suspended > fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel > down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get = pushed back to > the rear (which will then be running over rich). > > It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the = runners. > Dollars to donuts that the first runner's > inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one. > > I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed = whatever was > wrong. I inserted a plate so that the runners > could not "see" the air intake. The air hits the plate and = spreads out > before heading to the runners directly, instead > of flying past the first on the way to the second. > > Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a = slot > halfway through the plenum between the runners. > Then I would slide a partition between them. It would = essentially create > three stalls that the runners originate from. > The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner = on the > way to the second. > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CD3F0A.36C0A4B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
The reason that I asked the question about idle on the secondary = injectors=20 is that when I first started the engine, with a Blue Mountain EFIS, I = found that=20 the engine ran very rich on the primaries, which were preferred by the = EC-2 at=20 idle, but when I switched to the secondary injectors the engine smoothed = out.=20 This led to the investigation of why, since all my injectors were the = same size.=20 I then found the problem with the BMA tach signal holding an injector = open (or=20 causing it to close slowly) that was fixed with Tracy=E2=80=99s = recommendation of a 2K=20 resistor in the line to limit the current draw from the BMA.  Just = a=20 diagnostic.
 
Bill=20 Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
77 hours
 
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:23 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector = balancing
 
Tracy, =20
 
Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for = primary and=20 secondary injectors.  I just haven't tried to see if it will idle = on the=20 secondaries only,  and I don't really understand what this has to = do with=20 my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm.  But I can run the = test=20 anyway.
 
Q:  When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you = look at=20 the fuel injector signals?  What would you suspect as to the cause = of an=20 extra rich mixture in one rotor? 
 
Mark

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark,
If you have the injector backup mode = switches=20 installed, all you have to do is disable the primaries while idling = and it=20 should go to the secondaries automatically.   You may have = to be=20 ready on the mixture control to lean it out when you switch over  = since=20 your secondaries are larger.

Tracy

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark = Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if it does.  I've never tried = idling on=20 the secondaries
with this intake.  My previous intake used = 60# Deka=20 IV injectors for
primary and secondary injectors and it didn't = idle well=20 at all... 1800
rpm was about as low as I could get it to run=20 smoothly.  But I
attribute that to the location of the = primary=20 injectors (upstream of
the slide throttle) which caused fuel = puddling at=20 low throttle
settings.  Since my secondaries are still = located=20 upstream of the
butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very = well=20 either.  As I
said before, one of my goals for my new intake = was to=20 re-position the
primary injectors downstream of the butterflies = in hopes=20 of improving
the idle characteristics.  It appears that I=20 accomplished that goal.

Mark

On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net> wrote:
> How does = it idle=20 on secondaries?
>
> Bill Schertz
> KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
> N343BS
> Phase one testing = Completed
>
>=20 From: Mark Steitle
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 = PM
> To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector=20 balancing
>
> Ernest,
>
> With my current = setup,=20 this p-port engine idles better than my side-port
> motor ever = did.  It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although = I
>=20 normally idle at 1500-1600.  Still, it might be an interesting=20 experiment to
> add temporary dividers in the airbox to see = what=20 effect it would have on
> tuning.
>
> If you take = a close=20 look at the picture I posted you can see the blue fuel
> = rail. =20 This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. =20 They're
> located downstream of the butterflies, very close to = the=20 intake ports and
> pointed directly at the rotor faces.  = I can't=20 imagine how the fuel could
> find its way 18" back down the = runner and=20 back into the other runners.  I've
> never found any = residual=20 fuel in the airbox either.  I don't see how the
> fuel = could be=20 pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm.  = But
>=20 then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design = either.
>
>=20 Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals=20 with
> this latest intake.  My previous slide throttle = had both=20 the primary and
> secondary injectors located upstream of the=20 slide.  This caused fuel
> pooling, especially at very = low=20 throttle settings.  Needless to say, this
> made low = throttle=20 tuning almost impossible.  So, the new intake has the
> = primary=20 injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles = great.
>
>=20 Mark
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at = 4:32=20 PM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
>=20 wrote:
>
>   Mark Steitle = wrote:
>  =20 > Ernest,
>   >
>   > I = don't=20 understand how that could happen if my injectors are after=20 the
>   > airbox (see attached = pic).
>  =20 >
>   > = Mark
>
>
>   At=20 idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some = serious
>=20 standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets = and
>   let=20 it stick to the walls.  You're set-up is very similar to mine, = in=20 that
> the fuel can run downhill and air has to=20 pass
>   in front of one runner before reaching the=20 others.  Some of that suspended
> fuel will coalesce on = the wall=20 and drivel
>   down the runner, and any coming out = of the=20 middle will get pushed back to
> the rear (which will then be = running=20 over rich).
>
>   It would also be interesting = to=20 watch individual MAPs across the runners.
> Dollars to donuts = that the=20 first runner's
>   inlet is at a partial vacuum = compared to=20 the rear one.
>
>   I may be wrong about the=20 mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatever was
> wrong.  = I=20 inserted a plate so that the runners
>   could not = "see" the=20 air intake.  The air hits the plate and spreads out
> = before=20 heading to the runners directly, instead
>   of = flying past=20 the first on the way to the second.
>
>   = Going off of=20 what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a slot
> = halfway=20 through the plenum between the runners.
>   Then I = would=20 slide a partition between them.  It would essentially = create
>=20 three stalls that the runners originate from.
>   = The point=20 being that air would not be able to go past one runner on = the
> way to=20 the second.
>
>
>   = --
>  =20 Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
>   = Archive and=20 UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l
>
>

--
Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

 
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