X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTPS id 5569952 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 May 2012 07:24:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bkcjc3 with SMTP id jc3so694204bkc.25 for ; Thu, 31 May 2012 04:23:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QCqtxrwafMJ/yb967rIIh0raHTCdNFt1d521SXjdRkA=; b=MOSJrsPQNlMM0oMIfZs7Htq56lDvNJzMLLXA9tOVxR7orQVX1e0NZ9fftSz0MZMOwy dDWbJeLlOuiUg5/qfjpnAXukup7/5qTflHBdiuD6zWNb8jTwQSdEBpyzQGzJO815zdWz gdlmWXHUY0ACr+G+aqlq0OC4zSYCzuw2artSHfmDzzlE7SCD0UIrEHYDaaVJr3Hze5Rg 4+wAooQX0W1cYgw0g/B1du9PT9yXRe6rBwtLB+ZAirBqfwYkAGOHfRhxev3wIvTdw5kM 7g/NgdnawTKXkJG4TyICBR5Emw+eNnevIDNDENlOSFNkB9IRm93QkPVtJ7cf90owL9+m 0bBA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.150 with SMTP id x22mr1129248bkw.55.1338463420657; Thu, 31 May 2012 04:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.97.194 with HTTP; Thu, 31 May 2012 04:23:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 06:23:40 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175924e2bbaf0204c1534cc8 --0015175924e2bbaf0204c1534cc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tracy, Yes it is wired per your schematic with separate switches for primary and secondary injectors. I just haven't tried to see if it will idle on the secondaries only, and I don't really understand what this has to do with my current issue of cutting out at 4-5k rpm. But I can run the test anyway. Q: When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2's do you look at the fuel injector signals? What would you suspect as to the cause of an extra rich mixture in one rotor? Mark On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Tracy wrote: > Mark, > If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you have to > do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the > secondaries automatically. You may have to be ready on the mixture > control to lean it out when you switch over since your secondaries are > larger. > > Tracy > > On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > >> I don't know if it does. I've never tried idling on the secondaries >> with this intake. My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for >> primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800 >> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. But I >> attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of >> the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle >> settings. Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the >> butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. As I >> said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the >> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving >> the idle characteristics. It appears that I accomplished that goal. >> >> Mark >> >> On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz wrote: >> > How does it idle on secondaries? >> > >> > Bill Schertz >> > KIS Cruiser #4045 >> > N343BS >> > Phase one testing Completed >> > >> > From: Mark Steitle >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing >> > >> > Ernest, >> > >> > With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my side-port >> > motor ever did. It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although I >> > normally idle at 1500-1600. Still, it might be an interesting >> experiment to >> > add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have on >> > tuning. >> > >> > If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue >> fuel >> > rail. This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. >> They're >> > located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports >> and >> > pointed directly at the rotor faces. I can't imagine how the fuel could >> > find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other runners. >> I've >> > never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. I don't see how the >> > fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. >> But >> > then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either. >> > >> > Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals with >> > this latest intake. My previous slide throttle had both the primary and >> > secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. This caused fuel >> > pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. Needless to say, >> this >> > made low throttle tuning almost impossible. So, the new intake has the >> > primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >> > >> > Mark >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley >> > wrote: >> > >> > Mark Steitle wrote: >> > > Ernest, >> > > >> > > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors are after >> the >> > > airbox (see attached pic). >> > > >> > > Mark >> > >> > >> > At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious >> > standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and >> > let it stick to the walls. You're set-up is very similar to mine, in >> that >> > the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass >> > in front of one runner before reaching the others. Some of that >> suspended >> > fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel >> > down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed >> back to >> > the rear (which will then be running over rich). >> > >> > It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the >> runners. >> > Dollars to donuts that the first runner's >> > inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one. >> > >> > I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatever >> was >> > wrong. I inserted a plate so that the runners >> > could not "see" the air intake. The air hits the plate and spreads >> out >> > before heading to the runners directly, instead >> > of flying past the first on the way to the second. >> > >> > Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a slot >> > halfway through the plenum between the runners. >> > Then I would slide a partition between them. It would essentially >> create >> > three stalls that the runners originate from. >> > The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner on >> the >> > way to the second. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > > --0015175924e2bbaf0204c1534cc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy,=A0

Yes it is wired per your schematic with separa= te switches for primary and secondary injectors. =A0I just haven't trie= d to see if it will idle on the secondaries only, =A0and I don't really= understand what this has to do with my current issue of cutting out at 4-5= k rpm. =A0But I can run the test anyway.=A0

Q: =A0When you bench test & update the s/w on EC-2&= #39;s do you look at the fuel injector signals? =A0What would you suspect a= s to the cause of an extra rich mixture in one rotor? =A0

Mark=A0

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:19= PM, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
Mark,
If you have the injector backup mode switches installed, all you h= ave to do is disable the primaries while idling and it should go to the sec= ondaries automatically.=A0=A0 You may have to be ready on the mixture contr= ol to lean it out when you switch over=A0 since your secondaries are larger= .

Tracy

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:56 A= M, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if it does. =A0I've never tried idling on the secondar= ies
with this intake. =A0My previous intake used 60# Deka IV injectors for
primary and secondary injectors and it didn't idle well at all... 1800<= br> rpm was about as low as I could get it to run smoothly. =A0But I
attribute that to the location of the primary injectors (upstream of
the slide throttle) which caused fuel puddling at low throttle
settings. =A0Since my secondaries are still located upstream of the
butterflies, I would guess it wouldn't idle very well either. =A0As I said before, one of my goals for my new intake was to re-position the
primary injectors downstream of the butterflies in hopes of improving
the idle characteristics. =A0It appears that I accomplished that goal.

Mark

On 5/30/12, Bill Schertz <wschertz@comcast.net> wrote:
> How does it idle on secondaries?
>
> Bill Schertz
> KIS Cruiser #4045
> N343BS
> Phase one testing Completed
>
> From: Mark Steitle
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 5:54 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector balancing
>
> Ernest,
>
> With my current setup, this p-port engine idles better than my side-po= rt
> motor ever did. =A0It will idle down to 750-800 rpm if asked, although= I
> normally idle at 1500-1600. =A0Still, it might be an interesting exper= iment to
> add temporary dividers in the airbox to see what effect it would have = on
> tuning.
>
> If you take a close look at the picture I posted you can see the blue = fuel
> rail. =A0This is the primary fuel rail feeding the primary injectors. = =A0They're
> located downstream of the butterflies, very close to the intake ports = and
> pointed directly at the rotor faces. =A0I can't imagine how the fu= el could
> find its way 18" back down the runner and back into the other run= ners. =A0I've
> never found any residual fuel in the airbox either. =A0I don't see= how the
> fuel could be pooling so close to the ports, especially at 4500 rpm. = =A0But
> then I'm not an expert in fuel injection design either.
>
> Alleviating fuel pooling in the runners was one of the design goals wi= th
> this latest intake. =A0My previous slide throttle had both the primary= and
> secondary injectors located upstream of the slide. =A0This caused fuel=
> pooling, especially at very low throttle settings. =A0Needless to say,= this
> made low throttle tuning almost impossible. =A0So, the new intake has = the
> primary injectors downstream of the butterflies, and it idles great. >
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> =A0 Mark Steitle wrote:
> =A0 > Ernest,
> =A0 >
> =A0 > I don't understand how that could happen if my injectors = are after the
> =A0 > airbox (see attached pic).
> =A0 >
> =A0 > Mark
>
>
> =A0 At idle, the intakes coming off the airbox can set up some serious=
> standing waves that will suspend fuel droplets and
> =A0 let it stick to the walls. =A0You're set-up is very similar to= mine, in that
> the fuel can run downhill and air has to pass
> =A0 in front of one runner before reaching the others. =A0Some of that= suspended
> fuel will coalesce on the wall and drivel
> =A0 down the runner, and any coming out of the middle will get pushed = back to
> the rear (which will then be running over rich).
>
> =A0 It would also be interesting to watch individual MAPs across the r= unners.
> Dollars to donuts that the first runner's
> =A0 inlet is at a partial vacuum compared to the rear one.
>
> =A0 I may be wrong about the mechanism, but I know my fix fixed whatev= er was
> wrong. =A0I inserted a plate so that the runners
> =A0 could not "see" the air intake. =A0The air hits the plat= e and spreads out
> before heading to the runners directly, instead
> =A0 of flying past the first on the way to the second.
>
> =A0 Going off of what I think I know, I would use a handsaw to cut a s= lot
> halfway through the plenum between the runners.
> =A0 Then I would slide a partition between them. =A0It would essential= ly create
> three stalls that the runners originate from.
> =A0 The point being that air would not be able to go past one runner o= n the
> way to the second.
>
>
> =A0 --
> =A0 Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/
> =A0 Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml
>
>

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html


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