X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost05.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTP id 5564670 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 28 May 2012 22:48:20 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.55; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-98-85-108-233.mco.bellsouth.net[98.85.108.233]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with SMTP id <20120529024742H0500q0vbhe>; Tue, 29 May 2012 02:47:42 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [98.85.108.233] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Injector balancing Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 22:47:42 -0400 Message-ID: <65CFFBDD4E154DCC95306DE13B63FE1E@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01CD3D23.E4DA3DB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac09O9gCadC7utUuSkykrslCVxYnQgABIl4A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01CD3D23.E4DA3DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, You have a lot of fuel delivery capability, but you may have too much. Just the three primary injectors will provide 190 HP at an 80% duty cycle, and about 230 at 95%. Assuming a .55 BSFC. When you kick in the secondaries, your duty cycle drops way down. Even if you are making 350 HP, your duty cycle for the 6 injectors you are using is just a little over 60%. And depending on how they are controlled by Tracy's EC-3, the secondaries may be being cut almost out. If the EC-3 maxes out the primaries, those huge secondaries would barely be turned on. They are not accurate at low duty cycles. You may have dirty or plugged injectors. I had my injectors cleaned and flow tested at CruzinPerformance. (link is below) it is really not too expensive and at least you will know what you have. That will help you to set your MAP up as well. You can probably rig up some kind of flow test bench yourself if you are wondering what they look like. See the link for WitchHunter to see how it could be done. He doesn't tell you how, but explains enough to make it possible for you to figure it out. Which injectors see the fuel supply first? Can you be starving the last two injectors? What fuel pressure are you running? Which size fuel pump are you using? Does this problem clear up if you turn on both pumps at the same time? I don't understand the reasoning for the injectors being prior to the throttle body. It seems that you will be injecting into a slow stream of air at any time that you are not at WOT. I realize you are trying to get the throttle body as close to the PPort as you can, but why not have both injectors behind the throttle? I would expect that the throttle butterfly would cause fuel to come out of the air stream?? Does it, or does the stream speed up enough to keep it from coming out? http://www.witchhunter.com/process2.php4 http://www.cruzinperformance.com/ Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:38 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector balancing I'm in a bit of a dilemma and thought I would put this out here for the group to ponder. First, this is a p-ported 3-rotor, running RWS EC-2 and psru. I'm running 460cc Mazda primary injectors and 60lb Deka IV secondary injectors. Primary injectors share a common fuel rail and are positioned close to the engine, between throttle plate and rotor face. Secondary injectors are located ahead of the throttle plates. As this is a p-port engine, it has three 1-bbl TB's, located very close to the engine. Engine will idle down to 800 - 900 rpm, but I normally idle it around 1500 - 1600 rpm. The problem is this, the #1 rotor cuts out at low to mid-range RPM, evidenced by obvious reduced power, very low EGT's on rotor #1, change in exhaust tone, a dark residue in the #1 exhaust port and dark spark plugs on #1. Just today I was able to get it to run normally with balanced EGT's by adjusting Mode 4, but I had to go full CCW with the program knob to achieve this. (Mode 4 & 5 adjust similar to Mode 1) Now it runs well mid-range and the dropped #1 rotor is happily firing away. I still have some tuning to do, but after adjusting Mode 4, I can now move forward with that. To date I have tried the following: 1. Performed a compression check - OK 2. Swapped primary injector with #3 - no change 3. Swapped coils with #3 - no change 4. Replaced spark plugs - no change, except initially it ran better until the plug fouled 5. Checked plug wires with ohm meter - checked good 6. Sent EC-2 to Tracy for latest s/w and checkout - no abnormalities found, latest s/w installed 7. Checked secondary injectors for leakage - none seen Can anyone suggest a reason why the #1 primary injector runs extremely rich when set to the factory default setting? Is this something to be concerned with? Thanks, Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01CD3D23.E4DA3DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

 

You have a lot of fuel delivery capability, but you may have too much.  Just the three primary = injectors will provide 190 HP at an 80% duty cycle, and about 230 at 95%.  = Assuming a .55 BSFC.  When you kick in the secondaries, your duty cycle drops = way down.  Even if you are making 350 HP, your duty cycle for the 6 = injectors you are using is just a little over 60%.  And depending on how they = are controlled by Tracy’s EC-3, the secondaries may be being cut almost out.  If the EC-3 = maxes out the primaries, those huge secondaries would barely be turned on.  = They are not accurate at low duty cycles.

 

You may have dirty or plugged injectors.  I had my injectors cleaned and flow tested at CruzinPerformance.  (link is below)  it is really not too = expensive and at least you will know what you have.  That will help you to = set your MAP up as well.

 

You can probably rig up some kind = of flow test bench yourself if you are wondering what they look like.  See = the link for WitchHunter to see how it could be done.  He doesn’t tell = you how, but explains enough to make it possible for you to figure it = out.

 

Which injectors see the fuel supply first?  Can you be starving the last two injectors?  What fuel pressure are you running?  Which size fuel pump are you = using?  Does this problem clear up if you turn on both pumps at the same = time?

 

I don’t understand the = reasoning for the injectors being prior to the throttle body.  It seems that you = will be injecting into a slow stream of air at any time that you are not at = WOT.  I realize you are trying to get the throttle body as close to the PPort as = you can, but why not have both injectors behind the throttle?  I would = expect that the throttle butterfly would cause fuel to come out of the air = stream??  Does it, or does the stream speed up enough to keep it from coming = out?

 

 

 

http://www.witchhunter.= com/process2.php4

 

http://www.cruzinperformance.c= om/

 

 

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, May 28, = 2012 9:38 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Injector balancing

 

I'm in a bit of a dilemma and thought I would put this out = here for the group to ponder.  

 

First, this is a p-ported 3-rotor, running RWS EC-2 and psru. =  I'm running 460cc Mazda primary injectors and 60lb Deka IV secondary = injectors.  Primary injectors share a common fuel rail and are positioned = close to the engine, between throttle plate and rotor face.  Secondary = injectors are located ahead of the throttle plates.  As this is a p-port = engine, it has three 1-bbl TB's, located very close to the engine.  Engine = will idle down to 800 - 900 rpm, but I normally idle it around 1500 - 1600 = rpm.

 

The problem is this, the #1 rotor cuts out at low to mid-range = RPM, evidenced by obvious reduced power, very low EGT's on rotor #1, change in exhaust = tone, a dark residue in the #1 exhaust port and dark spark plugs on #1. =  Just today I was able to get it to run normally with balanced EGT's by = adjusting Mode 4, but I had to go full CCW with the program knob to achieve = this.  (Mode 4 & 5 adjust similar to Mode 1)  Now it runs well mid-range and the dropped #1 rotor is happily firing away.  I still = have some tuning to do, but after adjusting Mode 4, I can now move forward = with that.   

 

To date I have tried the following:

  1.  Performed a compression check - = OK

  2.  Swapped primary injector with #3 - no = change

  3.  Swapped coils with #3 - no = change

  4.  Replaced spark plugs - no change, except = initially it ran better until the plug fouled

  5.  Checked plug wires with ohm meter - checked = good

  6.  Sent EC-2 to Tracy for latest s/w and checkout - no abnormalities found, latest s/w = installed

  7.  Checked secondary injectors for leakage - none = seen

 

Can anyone suggest a reason why the #1 primary injector runs = extremely rich when set to the factory default setting?  Is this something to = be concerned with?

 

Thanks,

Mark

  

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