X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.146] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTP id 5555565 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 23 May 2012 10:33:11 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.146; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.76]) by imr-da04.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q4NEWUuf020244 for ; Wed, 23 May 2012 10:32:30 -0400 Received: from core-mob004c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mob004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.194.205]) by mtaomg-mb05.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 3C76CE000086 for ; Wed, 23 May 2012 10:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: <4af4e.65954ca9.3cee4efd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 10:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Graduated to high power run-ups To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_4af4e.65954ca9.3cee4efd_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 5004 X-Originating-IP: [173.88.30.23] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1337783550; bh=YTvVosfs6LMWAjkr7t/Z1+9wXL/Z2mGJY8MxPedyy4s=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=XtXS3tJR0eeDO1vDQRg74rS14tuPXgE9piMtKFpfWDIBLhdYA+1Ldk8Jnk6YVvvGF RDbAePvlHOLBA/rJKrIjl574Gv5dkPJfPUA3ReYQCAnPqVJjaG8/W7N7dAKRer/3am NNtt5Xl/Dn33k1syile49b5U6Z7MDZziv3O0g4b8= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:401504672:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294c4fbcf4fe453e --part1_4af4e.65954ca9.3cee4efd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/23/2012 9:43:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, echristley@att.net writes: Lehanover@aol.com wrote: > So at each 100 RPM both advance and retard timing from the set point to > see that you are in the middle of a range for that RPM. You may find > some nulls that like a bit of retard. This is usually a combination of > header and inlet tract design. Your combination is not like anyone else > even if they look identical. I have played with the timing just a little bit. On the computer I have to adjust by 0.1* at a time. I didn't see much of a change as I moved it up and down by 0.5 to 1.0 degree. I thought there would be more benefit to getting the AFR smoothed out, so I left it alone for now. How large of a change in advance is necessary to start showing up on the tach? The mixture is more important for power. The ignition advance is a long term power and longevity factor. Changes in timing are usually made in 2 degree steps. Typical dyno talk is: make just one change. Make a big enough change to make a difference. So you can see which way you are moving. > > Cylinder pressure developed BTDC subtracts from torque, so less is more > in the timing department. > > Target water temp is 180. Oil temp is 160. Above 160 oil is giving away > power, as rotor face temps go way up and limit charge volume. So, oil > temp control is free HP. > > 1600 degrees goes with about 12.5 FA in most cases. So far, I've only been able to give the EGTs an occasional glance to insure I'm not melting anything. They and the oil pressure gauge are mounted to my left, and everything else is on the computer on my right. Since I'm doing this in my suburbian driveway, I have to keep my head moving looking for the stray soccer ball (no actual kids around, but you never know). The highest EGT I've seen so far is around 1500 (I need to tilt the gauge to eliminate parallax error). EGT changes so fast there is no way to observe it with any clarity. I installed a second little dash with EGTs and tach just for that reason. Then set up a movie camera to watch the gages. Race car drivers operate in a constant helmet fire situation and come back in with gibberish for data. Made every shift at 9,600 on the button, but the tattle tale on the tach says 10,300. Must be a bad tach. Bad bad tach. Shame on you. EGT probes beyond 3" just tell you the engine is running. Daryl Drummond (Builds hundreds of rotaries for various racing classes). And built our first two race engines, says 3 inches from the port face and that is where mine are. I use cheap gages and probes and replace them every year, and carry a spare of each with me. The EGT data is only for WOT at some useful RPM. For other than top load top RPM the heated (three wires) oxygen sensor is the piece to use for mixtures. If you lock up an engine or a reduction unit without the wings installed, you might find the fuselage on its side in the drive with prop parts 100 yards down range. Just a thought. Lynn E. Hanover I've got a line on some hangar space at a grass field 10 minutes from my house. Then I'll be able to be a little more studious of all the engine parameters. > > Advancing the throttle from fast idle to full power should be smooth and > slow. If the timing is fixed this is very important. For closed throttle > and near closed throttle, with poor cylinder filling fixed 20 or 22 > degrees is fine but if you romp down on the power quickly that 20 > degrees is way to much as wide open throttle at low RPM gets you nearly > 100% or slightly more cylinder filling. if(WOT & (RPM < 4000){ ADV <= 15 } Setting the computer is easy. Knowing WHAT the setting should be.... > > Record everything. Currently, the only thing I'm not recording is the EGTs. I have individual probes for each rotor, but I'm considering adding another probe, installing it at the exit of the exhaust collector, and tying it into the MegaSquirt so that I can record it along with everything else. I would tie the two I have into the computer, but I only have one ADC port left on it. Would a combined EGT reading be valuable when it is recorded alongside all the engine temps, timing, AFR, RPM, throttle position, etc? > > This information may be worth what it cost you. You do realize I'm printing out your advice and keeping it with me as I work over the tuning 8*) -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --part1_4af4e.65954ca9.3cee4efd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
In a message dated 5/23/2012 9:43:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 echristley@att.net writes:
= Lehanover@aol.com wrote:
> So at each 100 RPM both adv= ance=20 and retard timing from the set point to
> see that you are in the m= iddle=20 of a range for that RPM. You may find
> some nulls that like a bit = of=20 retard. This is usually a combination of
> header and inlet tract= =20 design. Your combination is not like anyone else
> even if they loo= k=20 identical.

I have played with the timing just a little bit.  = On=20 the computer I have to adjust by 0.1* at a time.  I didn't see much<= BR>of=20 a change as I moved it up and down by 0.5 to 1.0 degree.  I thought = there=20 would be more benefit to getting the AFR
smoothed out, so I left it al= one=20 for now.  How large of a change in advance is necessary to start sho= wing=20 up on the tach?
 
The mixture is more important for power. The ignition advance is a lon= g=20 term power and longevity factor. Changes in timing are usually made in 2 de= gree=20 steps. Typical dyno talk is: make just one change. Make a big enough change= to=20 make a difference. So you can see which way you are moving.

> 
> Cylinder pressure developed BTDC= =20 subtracts from torque, so less is more
> in the timing=20 department.
> 
> Target water temp is 180. Oil temp is 16= 0.=20 Above 160 oil is giving away
> power, as rotor face temps go way up a= nd=20 limit charge volume. So, oil
> temp control is free HP.
> = =20
> 1600 degrees goes with about 12.5 FA in most cases.

So far,= I've=20 only been able to give the EGTs an occasional glance to insure I'm not melt= ing=20 anything.  They and the oil
pressure gauge are mounted to my left, = and=20 everything else is on the computer on my right.  Since I'm doing this = in=20 my
suburbian driveway, I have to keep my head moving looking for the str= ay=20 soccer ball (no actual kids around, but you
never know).  The highe= st=20 EGT I've seen so far is around 1500 (I need to tilt the gauge to eliminate= =20 parallax error).
 
EGT changes so fast there is no way to observe = it with=20 any clarity. I installed a second little dash with EGTs and tach just for t= hat=20 reason. Then set up a movie camera to watch the gages. Race car drivers ope= rate=20 in a constant helmet fire situation and come back in with gibberish for dat= a.=20 Made every shift at 9,600 on the button, but the tattle tale on the tach sa= ys=20 10,300. Must be a bad tach.  Bad bad tach. Shame on=20 you.
 
EGT probes beyond 3" just tell you the engine i= s=20 running. Daryl Drummond (Builds hundreds of rotaries for various racing=20 classes).
 And built our first two race engines, say= s 3=20 inches from the port face and that is where mine are. I use cheap gages and= =20 probes and replace them every year, and carry a spare of each with me. The = EGT=20 data is only for WOT at some useful RPM.
 
For other than top load top RPM the heated (three wires) oxygen sensor= is=20 the piece to use for mixtures.
 
If you lock up an engine or a reduction unit without the wings install= ed,=20 you might find the fuselage on its side in the drive with prop parts 100 ya= rds=20 down range. Just a thought.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 


I've got a line on some hangar space at a grass field 10 minut= es=20 from my house.  Then I'll be able to be a little more
studious of a= ll=20 the engine parameters.

> 
> Advancing the throttle fr= om=20 fast idle to full power should be smooth and
> slow. If the timing is= =20 fixed this is very important. For closed throttle
> and near closed= =20 throttle, with poor cylinder filling fixed 20 or 22
> degrees is fine= but=20 if you romp down on the power quickly that 20
> degrees is way to muc= h as=20 wide  open throttle at low RPM gets you nearly
> 100% or slightl= y=20 more cylinder filling.

if(WOT & (RPM < 4000){
   = ; ADV=20 <=3D 15
}

Setting the computer is easy.  Knowing WHAT the= =20 setting should be....

> 
> Record=20 everything.

Currently, the only thing I'm not recording is the=20 EGTs.  I have individual probes for each rotor, but I'm=20 considering
adding another probe, installing it at the exit of the exhau= st=20 collector, and tying it into the MegaSquirt so that I can
record it alon= g=20 with everything else.  I would tie the two I have into the computer, b= ut I=20 only have one ADC port left
on it.  Would a combined EGT reading be= =20 valuable when it is recorded alongside all the engine temps, timing, AFR,= =20 RPM,
throttle position, etc?

> 
> This information= may=20 be worth what it cost you.

You do realize I'm printing out your advi= ce=20 and keeping it with me as I work over the tuning=20 8*)

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and= =20 UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
= --part1_4af4e.65954ca9.3cee4efd_boundary--