X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5125511 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:21:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.95; envelope-from=bktrub@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.200]) by imr-db01.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p8FEL3tX015740 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:21:05 -0400 Received: from core-duc005c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-duc005.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.164.145]) by mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 75643E000092 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:21:04 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CE41C9D61C3A21_DEC_9DD9_webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 34122-STANDARD Received: from 50.46.146.205 by webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com (64.12.159.1) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:21:04 -0400 Message-Id: <8CE41C9D61C3A21-DEC-382F@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [50.46.146.205] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:21:04 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:466991072:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c84e7209d01ceb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CE41C9D61C3A21_DEC_9DD9_webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" How about a second CAS on the flywheel, with an A/B switch for redundancy i= f you are worried about a CAS failure? Brian Trubee -----Original Message----- From: Tom Walter To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 5:24 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Yep... so the irony is a 100% redundant CAS has to be 360 degrees off from = the first one. Since both can not occupy the same physical location the software needs an = offset. =20 Rotor Two then needs 180 degree offset if it is the master pulse. Tom From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:53 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Tom,=20 =20 The 13B requires 1080 degrees to fire all six rotor faces. This means that= it fires every 180*, not every 120*. =20 The 3-rotor fires every 120* because it has 9 rotor faces in order to fire = all faces within 1080 degrees. =20 Mark S. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Tom Walter wrote: Could you enlighten me? =20 I'm missing something pretty obvious, but allowing for one "missing spark e= vent" All my 120 degree trailing offset means is that I'm really firing o= ff rotor face 2, which the ecu thinks is rotor face 1. No camshaft, or ca= m timing issues, but what the heck am I missing? Tom From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Short answer is no. It's never that simple. Tracy Sent from my iPad On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter wrote: Tracy, If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 crank degrees after the first on= e, wouldn't that be a zero offset? My thoughts: Rotor spins at 1/3 crank speed..... so with 720 crank revolut= ions, that is six ignition events. So each ignition event is 120 degrees ap= art. Yes, I tend to think in 720 crankshaft degrees, to many years in au= tomotive piston engines. =20 Tom From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:43 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... The relay is not needed in this hypothetical fix. The EC2/3 already has 2= CAS inputs. All that is needed is a hard definition of sensor offset so t= he software can be written appropriately. ( I'm assuming a Renesis engine = which has only one CAS in this discussion.) The CAS output is an AC voltage sine-wave that varies with engine speed. = This is true for both Mazda and Subaru engines (and almost all others). T= he sensor is a variable reluctor type. =20 Tracy Sent from my iPad On Sep 14, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson wr= ote: On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote:=20
How about a second CAS on = the flywheel, with an A/B switch for redundancy if you are worried about a = CAS failure?
 
Brian Trubee



= -----Original Message-----
From: Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Sep 15, 2011 5:24 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......

Yep... so the irony is a 100% redundant CAS has to be 360 degree= s off from the first one.
Since both can not occupy the same physical location the softwar= e needs an offset.  

Rotor Two then needs 180 degree offset if it is the master pulse= .

Tom


From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September = 14, 2011 7:53 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Th= e good news and the bad news......

Tom, 
 
The 13B requires 1080 degrees to fire all six rotor faces.  This = means that it fires every 180*, not every 120*.  

The 3-rotor fires every 120* because it has 9 rotor faces in order to = fire all faces within 1080 degrees.  

Mark S.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Tom W= alter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Could you enlighten me? 

I'm missing something pretty obvious, but allowing for one "miss= ing spark event"   All my 120 degree trailing offset means is tha= t I'm really firing off rotor face 2, which the ecu thinks is rotor face 1.=    No camshaft, or cam timing issues,  but what the heck am = I missing?

Tom

From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September = 14, 2011 5:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Th= e good news and the bad news......

Short answer is no.   It's never that simple.
Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrote:

Tracy,

If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 crank degrees after t= he first one, wouldn't that be a zero offset?

My thoughts:  Rotor spins at 1/3 crank speed..... so with 7= 20 crank revolutions, that is six ignition events. So each ign= ition event is 120 degrees apart.    Yes, I tend to think in= 720 crankshaft degrees, to many years in automotive piston en= gines. 

Tom






From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September = 14, 2011 4:43 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Th= e good news and the bad news......

The relay is not needed in this hypothetical fix.   The EC2/3 alr= eady has 2 CAS inputs.  All that is needed is a hard definition of sen= sor offset so the software can be written appropriately.  (= I'm assuming a Renesis engine which has only one CAS in this discussion.)<= /SPAN>

The CAS output is an AC voltage sine-wave that varies with engine spee= d.   This is true for both Mazda and Subaru engines (and almost all ot= hers).   The sensor is a variable reluctor type.   

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 14, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson <crobinson@medialantern.com> wrote:

On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote:=20
<What kind of signal is on the CAS line
If memory serves, it's 0 to 5vdc square wave.
 
<Could it go through a relay safely?
Yes, but I'm not sure where you are going. You thinking normally = closed contacts to OEM CAS, norm open to backup CAS? You still have to mana= ge angle offset. Would be unfortunate to have moisture in relay or turbulen= ce disrupt CAS. Likely not going to end up with safety improvement. Good cr= eative idea though.
The rotary engine CAS is set up on a bracket near the front pu= lley. I was envisioning a system where you had a sensor in exactly the same= spot on the other side of the toothed wheel. You might need an offset alte= rnator pulley to make room for it - but then you don't have to worry about = angles/offsets. It's just a second sensor, ready to go - flip a switch and = try an engine restart. If relay reliability was a concern there are always = SSRs or even just good switching transistors...








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