X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com ([209.85.216.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5125364 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:45:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.216.173; envelope-from=dmlobner@gmail.com Received: by qyc1 with SMTP id 1so4537698qyc.4 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:44:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Bd10I/dn3iVmZt3B7K89Joblz6i10i0onGOYLc6shog=; b=GNPpa9kqoBAufHm5kCdOS0toFJ0IpYiIq62sFkpyT8h9I/1UNGSoTYWh9DKXJmChLg p9m0+B3L3y6ZOm4cCdWkqYd3sCJHOuVa2ucyUMkAIuHQCETIj9WfgyEX5ZEuAFYUbzcA fOM3RtgW2uP39cYQygIlEQvDwqUU4r/591fvg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.36.193 with SMTP id u1mr929723qcd.57.1316090680313; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.185.197 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:44:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:44:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... From: Dustin Lobner To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163646d0347e072d04acfa3d2c --00163646d0347e072d04acfa3d2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 How many degrees apart could the two CAS sensors be? If you could get it at a 5 degree split, you could have the backup CAS just be retarded 5 degrees. Less performance to be sure, but it will get you home at least. Dustin On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 7:23 AM, Tom Walter wrote: > Yep... so the irony is a 100% redundant CAS has to be 360 degrees off from > the first one. > Since both can not occupy the same physical location the software needs an > offset. > > Rotor Two then needs 180 degree offset if it is the master pulse. > > Tom > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Mark Steitle > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:53 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... > > Tom, > > The 13B requires 1080 degrees to fire all six rotor faces. This means that > it fires every 180*, not every 120*. > > The 3-rotor fires every 120* because it has 9 rotor faces in order to fire > all faces within 1080 degrees. > > Mark S. > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Tom Walter wrote: > > Could you enlighten me? > > I'm missing something pretty obvious, but allowing for one "missing spark > event" All my 120 degree trailing offset means is that I'm really firing > off rotor face 2, which the ecu thinks is rotor face 1. No camshaft, or > cam timing issues, but what the heck am I missing? > > Tom > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Tracy > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:06 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... > > Short answer is no. It's never that simple. > Tracy > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter wrote: > > Tracy, > > If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 crank degrees after the first > one, wouldn't that be a zero offset? > > My thoughts: Rotor spins at 1/3 crank speed..... so with 720 crank > revolutions, that is six ignition events. So each ignition event is 120 > degrees apart. Yes, I tend to think in 720 crankshaft degrees, to many > years in automotive piston engines. > > Tom > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Tracy > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:43 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... > > The relay is not needed in this hypothetical fix. The EC2/3 already has 2 > CAS inputs. All that is needed is a hard definition of sensor offset so the > software can be written appropriately. ( I'm assuming a Renesis engine > which has only one CAS in this discussion.) > > The CAS output is an AC voltage sine-wave that varies with engine speed. > This is true for both Mazda and Subaru engines (and almost all others). > The sensor is a variable reluctor type. > > Tracy > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 14, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson < > crobinson@medialantern.com> wrote: > > On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote: > > If memory serves, it's 0 to 5vdc square wave. > > Yes, but I'm not sure where you are going. You thinking normally closed > contacts to OEM CAS, norm open to backup CAS? You still have to manage angle > offset. Would be unfortunate to have moisture in relay or turbulence disrupt > CAS. Likely not going to end up with safety improvement. Good creative idea > though. > > The rotary engine CAS is set up on a bracket near the front pulley. I was > envisioning a system where you had a sensor in exactly the same spot on the > other side of the toothed wheel. You might need an offset alternator pulley > to make room for it - but then you don't have to worry about angles/offsets. > It's just a second sensor, ready to go - flip a switch and try an engine > restart. If relay reliability was a concern there are always SSRs or even > just good switching transistors... > > > > > > > > > --00163646d0347e072d04acfa3d2c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How many degrees apart could the two CAS sensors be?=A0 If you could get it= at a 5 degree split, you could have the backup CAS just be retarded 5 degr= ees.=A0 Less performance to be sure, but it will get you home at least.
=
Dustin

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 7:23 AM, T= om Walter <r= oundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yep... so the irony is a 100% redundant CAS has to be 360 degrees o= ff from the first one.
Since both can not occupy the same physical location the softwar= e needs an offset.=A0=A0

= Rotor Two then needs 180 degree offset if it is the master pulse.

Tom

<= /span>

From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>

To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:53 PM

Subject:<= /span> [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......

Tom,=A0
=A0
=
The 13B requires 1080 degrees to fire all six rotor faces. =A0This mea= ns that it fires every 180*, not every 120*. =A0

The 3-rotor fires every 120* because it has 9 rotor fac= es in order to fire all faces within 1080 degrees. =A0

Mark S.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:21 PM, To= m Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrot= e:
Could you enlighten me?=A0

<= /div>
I'm missing something pretty obvious, but allowing for one &= quot;missing spark event"=A0=A0 All my 120 degree trailing offset mean= s is that I'm really firing off rotor face 2, which the ecu thinks is r= otor face 1.=A0=A0 No camshaft, or cam timing issues,=A0 but what the heck = am I missing?

Tom

<= div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: = 12pt;">
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, = 2011 5:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= he good news and the bad news......

Short answer is no. =A0 It's never that simple.
Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 14, 2011= , at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrote:

Tracy,

If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 crank degrees after t= he first one, wouldn't that be a zero offset?

My thoughts:=A0= Rotor spins at 1/3 crank speed..... so with 720 crank revolutions, that is= six ignition events. So each ignition event is 120 degrees ap= art.=A0=A0=A0 Yes, I tend to think in 720 crankshaft degrees, to many years= in automotive piston engines.=A0

Tom

<= /span>





From: Tracy <rwstracy= @gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:43 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: T= he good news and the bad news......

The relay is no= t needed in this hypothetical fix. =A0 The EC2/3 already has 2 CAS inputs. = =A0All that is needed is a hard definition of sensor offset so the software= can=A0be written appropriately. =A0( I'm assuming a Renesis engi= ne which has only one CAS in this discussion.)

The CAS output is an AC volta= ge sine-wave that varies with engine speed. =A0 This is true for both Mazda= and Subaru engines (and almost all others). =A0 The sensor is a variable r= eluctor type. =A0=A0

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 14,= 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson <crobinson@medialanter= n.com> wrote:

On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote:
=20 =20 =20
<What kind of signal is on the CAS line
If memory serves, it's 0 to 5vdc square wave.
=A0
<Could it go through a relay safely?
Yes, but I'm not sure where you are going. You thinking=A0normally closed contacts to OEM CAS, norm open to backup CAS? You still have to manage angle offset. Would be unfortunate to have moisture in relay or turbulence disrupt CAS. Likely not going to end up with safety improvement. Good creative idea though.
The rotary engine CAS is set up on a bracket near the front pulley. I was envisioning a system where you had a sensor in exactly the same spot on the other side of the toothed wheel. You might need an offset alternator pulley to make room for it - but then you don't have to worry about angles/offsets. It's just a second sensor, read= y to go - flip a switch and try an engine restart. If relay reliability was a concern there are always SSRs or even just good switching transistors...

=20








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