X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm23.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.91.93] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5125327 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:24:16 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.91.93; envelope-from=roundrocktom@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.91.61] by nm23.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2011 12:23:40 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.28] by tm1.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2011 12:23:40 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2011 12:23:40 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 623681.90919.bm@omp1028.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 59818 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Sep 2011 12:23:40 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1316089420; bh=uq03goxTheLE+9QgChoySNIyP+Rmh6QuEafBf5IDY4Q=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=m4+uEtuafHaSuarCdVKy7sXR97mmg1wRq7ro7EkhpR/jmhnDOfkpGVUlypQB6AA74jLxAtbxoR06wDbjy2NKOS24g4Yuw+ciSJwSyPAWUvUdAqXsDkkYtr/hWDg9Dq7tFVb9NQahGvzn3oxi65l1sZ/OVavW0J+q6S6vKaHUaDI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mR1avLyvoDcmNDN9pEA/fu4f1KqKQ7dpHBr9gTTObBnKZnkcM8yQLiEUmh+scEL7UDQMjcRMC7royYIez0T1vZoq98IlWVO4WazgyOJypdqUoDE9KPG+apnZujw767Qk93NhRfpJRJeUkTa+KIgWGy1N64ckSwZED61FZjqASCE=; X-YMail-OSG: 7fjY2qsVM1nmcnNIrDYOgCFTI1rDINMFQnOibIzD4KgE0tI BseUYgYrRz15bHBp.s2ZdWjACtJEzw0LF7_heWRbvFZ4gvSITaxJPFe3N7kz pBWBVsg1yjy89xqewC6kc8ZQ33SwiQCCl0.q4mTP0AIAYcM0ERBUOivtCwO4 FKqQFNTw0An2_s7AjfBPiyakaMNGGKnbGUn4iAHOCH7rKwAPxU5STPHWy9Va pkikxqtlI.Y867JSg9.geb6bhVcp1gwkP8egXXyqL2kd6xNSM6gW7wHoh5GQ KdPR8kCg3dSqauc0RDrrMqI.3Nu_79sGyN5ZXU3tcneW_EBbxdxuIR1aty4r EUhJ_lfoyJaipZlgv6N8gHw.MgLUY0yUqWkluKby6tL.xytXpcAEURh_fu6W oDRwC9p1vwg2uZ_mY1sWVgFAWvBRwDLJ4ktToQNLU45cPe1xEi.Xq66KjOFo Vm_e8ocYjVS403aCK8tnTpAHtNuWDqEv5ir1en_DsKE4W21XaqXJXxg-- Received: from [66.68.30.169] by web111506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:23:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681 References: Message-ID: <1316089419.57797.YahooMailNeo@web111506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 05:23:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Walter Reply-To: Tom Walter Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1030100336-2055098984-1316089419=:57797" --1030100336-2055098984-1316089419=:57797 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep... so the irony is a 100% redundant CAS has to be 360 degrees off from = the first one.=0ASince both can not occupy the same physical location the s= oftware needs an offset.=A0=A0 =0A=0A=0ARotor Two then needs 180 degree off= set if it is the master pulse.=0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________= ___________=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors i= n aircraft =0ASent: Wednesday, September 14, 2= 011 7:53 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......= =0A=0A=0ATom,=A0=0A=A0=0AThe 13B requires 1080 degrees to fire all six roto= r faces. =A0This means that it fires every 180*, not every 120*. =A0=0A=0AT= he 3-rotor fires every 120* because it has 9 rotor faces in order to fire a= ll faces within 1080 degrees. =A0=0A=0AMark S.=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Sep 14, 2011= at 5:21 PM, Tom Walter wrote:=0A=0ACould you enli= ghten me?=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>I'm missing something pretty obvious, but allo= wing for one "missing spark event"=A0=A0 All my 120 degree trailing offset = means is that I'm really firing off rotor face 2, which the ecu thinks is r= otor face 1.=A0=A0 No camshaft, or cam timing issues,=A0 but what the heck = am I missing?=0A>=0A>=0A>Tom=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>___________________________= _____=0A>From: Tracy =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0A>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:06 P= M=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......=0A>=0A>= =0A>Short answer is no. =A0 It's never that simple.=0A>Tracy=0A>=0A>Sent fr= om my iPad=0A>=0A>On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>Tracy,=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>If the second CAS sensor was= set up at 120 crank degrees after the first one, wouldn't that be a zero o= ffset?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>My thoughts:=A0 Rotor spins at 1/3 crank speed..... so= with 720 crank revolutions, that is six ignition events.So each ignition e= vent is 120 degrees apart.=A0=A0=A0 Yes, I tend to think in 720 crankshaft = degrees, to many yearsin automotive piston engines.=A0 =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= Tom=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>= =0A>>________________________________=0A>>From: Tracy = =0A>>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>>Sent: = Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:43 PM=0A>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good= news and the bad news......=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The relay is not needed in this = hypothetical fix. =A0 The EC2/3 already has 2 CAS inputs. =A0All that is ne= eded is a hard definition of sensor offset so the software can=A0be written= appropriately. =A0( I'm assuming a Renesis engine which has only one CAS i= n this discussion.)=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The CAS output is an AC voltage sine-wave= that varies with engine speed. =A0 This is true for both Mazda and Subaru = engines (and almost all others). =A0 The sensor is a variable reluctor type= . =A0=A0=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Tracy=0A>>=0A>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>=0A>>On Sep 14,= 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson wrote:=0A>>= =0A>>=0A>>On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote: =0A>>>>>>If memory serves, it's 0 to 5vdc square wave. =0A>>= >>=A0=0A>>>>>>>Yes, but I'm not sur= e where you are going. You thinking=A0normally closed contacts to OEM CAS, = norm open to backup CAS? You still have to manage angle offset. Would be un= fortunate to have moisture in relay or turbulence disrupt CAS. Likely not g= oing to end up with safety improvement. Good creative idea though. =0AThe r= otary engine CAS is set up on a bracket near the front pulley. I was envisi= oning a system where you had a sensor in exactly the same spot on the other= side of the toothed wheel. You might need an offset alternator pulley to m= ake room for it - but then you don't have to worry about angles/offsets. It= 's just a second sensor, ready to go - flip a switch and try an engine rest= art. If relay reliability was a concern there are always SSRs or even just = good switching transistors...=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A> --1030100336-2055098984-1316089419=:57797 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yep... so = the irony is a 100% redundant CAS has to be 360 degrees off from the first = one.
Since both can not occupy the same physical loc= ation the software needs an offset.  

<= span>
Rotor Two then needs 180 degree offset if it i= s the master pulse.

Tom<= br>


From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmai= l.com>
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:53 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The go= od news and the bad news......

Tom,&= nbsp;
 
The 13B requires 1080 degrees to fire all six ro= tor faces.  This means that it fires every 180*, not every 120*.  = ;

The 3-rotor fires every 120* because it has 9 ro= tor faces in order to fire all faces within 1080 degrees.  
=0A
Mark S.

On = Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrote= :
=0A
Could you enlighten me? 
=

I'm missing something pretty o= bvious, but allowing for one "missing spark event"   All my 120 d= egree trailing offset means is that I'm really firing off rotor face 2, whi= ch the ecu thinks is rotor face 1.   No camshaft, or cam timing i= ssues,  but what the heck am I missing?
=0A

=
Tom

= =0A
From: Tracy <= rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary=0A motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:06 PM<= br>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= The good news and the bad news......
=0A
Short answ= er is no.   It's never that simple.
Tracy

Sent= from my iPad

On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wro= te:
=0A
Tracy,

=0A
If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 crank d= egrees after the first one, wouldn't that be a zero=0A offset?
=

My thoughts:  Rotor spins at 1/= 3 crank speed..... so with 720 crank revolutions, that is six ignition even= ts. So each ignition event is 120 degrees apart.  &n= bsp; Yes, I tend to think in 720 crankshaft degrees, to many years in automotive piston engines. 
=0A

Tom


=


<= br>
=0A

From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
=0ATo= : Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:43 = PM
=0ASubject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: The good news and the bad news......

The rel= ay is not needed in this hypothetical fix.   The EC2/3 already has 2 C= AS inputs.  All that is needed is a hard definition of sensor offset s= o the software can be written appropriately.  ( I'm assumin= g a Renesis engine which has only one CAS in this=0A discussion.)

The CAS output is an AC voltage sine-wave that varie= s with engine speed.   This is true for both Mazda and Subaru engines = (and almost all others).   The sensor is a variable reluctor type. &nb= sp; 
=0A

Tracy

Sent from my iPad
<= div>
On Sep 14, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson <crobinson@medialantern.com> wrote:
=0A
=0A On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick= wrote:=0A
=0A =0A =0A =0A =
<What kind of signal is on the CAS line
=0A
If memo= ry serves, it's 0 to 5vdc square wave.
=0A
 
=0A =
<Could it go through a relay safely?
=0A
Yes, b= ut I'm not sure where you are going. You=0A thinking normally c= losed contacts to OEM CAS, norm open to=0A backup CAS? You still hav= e to manage angle offset. Would be=0A unfortunate to have moisture i= n relay or turbulence disrupt CAS.=0A Likely not going to end up wit= h safety improvement. Good=0A creative idea though.
=0A =0A The rotary engine CAS is set up on a bracket near the fron= t pulley.=0A I was envisioning a system where you had a sensor in exactl= y the=0A same spot on the other side of the toothed wheel. You might nee= d an=0A offset alternator pulley to make room for it - but then you don'= t=0A have to worry about angles/offsets. It's just a second sensor, read= y=0A to go - flip a switch and try an engine restart. If relay=0A rel= iability was a concern there are always SSRs or even just good=0A switch= ing transistors...
=0A
=0A =0A=0A




=0A

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