X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm25-vm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.185] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5124837 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:41:28 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.185; envelope-from=roundrocktom@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.49] by nm25.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2011 00:40:52 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.237] by tm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2011 00:40:52 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1037.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2011 00:40:52 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 761042.16804.bm@omp1037.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 37885 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Sep 2011 00:40:51 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1316047251; bh=DFIzVpKhdLNCby7MctwqMgHrCoa28LZI2y7JzNUwBVo=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=0BzIRaiesQYSu3/1cvtvRupjfHQMTQWcBMdgtEe0vcRjTtOGv0ehQ+Uacs+Td2537mumDfVYYn0dOld3lSkLjpXzlzhRZgGEr/zO4AZ0VikeIH2ioOaMl7KjlCZmtXxtVb7Qmmmayl3pZw+s+zhr+OdR0AYJ0448SQV/Crw66Y4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ATGmGBTTvCWcU3Vg0VP/ilLmPqVUVr1Em/tyX6xTujaHd26B8Eteu0zxr8VfICWBpN01uDtxZAVf3kTtCMA0W/tlSgqfdb6I/xeumMyn6Vmy7mflbtkX2weTLZad5oLXKRStxtcp9Yi0FSTYcOxfiSfzruaNk3lWk5u0Cxa+Na4=; X-YMail-OSG: GK_m0cYVM1nhHI.MJQJqyPKurDvyWhZDyD4OaVMV48t3zuQ qZnxxHmokHsojUgSmA9lc529ad088_w8SR7pMV3PQTpN4Y21C_Ldnk6Gz3Tj tcDHatggk9Ci9H4ZceVmZBy0cnbzO0tNG4c6637qTV0uJgcKeEjT_mNQLb_g bxytlkQlUO2FA.aygn5MRiikchFTPDww8exGBddZu7rLfpvyXKA6Wfx.inNA bE21mrpDcWXCNmKKGmEH.u.nrq7viv0co46M1ZubVMzacZP4EMkqHQEp89fr 7RUhTiria_DcPfIh7uCACW0w5g6yHN9mN63bed2GpWT6m.voDKp2ZNTp.qjQ Xq.8MDjrysYfcWhxKxu7maIKoQY7Hfl60iroX3lQ5oWOLYjLQ1xap6kJ1B_W tFR1UWinWaiXlerE63WhcXHJEb43fSi3eCQqi6fPycDCLob8YUG2MzgMHv7Y Un0TW05F81i5zo8bPDjiSnPPRVD8rsTCVKdHchWyWPhztsXAvCw70fg-- Received: from [66.68.30.169] by web111507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:40:51 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.114.317681 References: Message-ID: <1316047251.13417.YahooMailNeo@web111507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Walter Reply-To: Tom Walter Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="965304187-736427005-1316047251=:13417" --965304187-736427005-1316047251=:13417 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No sooner did I read what I wrote, and thought DOH!=A0 =0A=0A=0AAll I can s= ay is is has been on long day, week, month.=A0=A0=A0 Hint, the rotor is rot= ating at 1/3rd crank speed.=A0=A0 =0AI'm going step away from the computer = and go have a beer!=A0=A0=A0=0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________= _________=0AFrom: Tom Walter =0ATo: Rotary motors i= n aircraft =0ASent: Wednesday, September 14, 2= 011 5:21 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......= =0A=0A=0ACould you enlighten me?=A0 =0A=0A=0AI'm missing something pretty o= bvious, but allowing for one "missing spark event"=A0=A0 All my 120 degree = trailing offset means is that I'm really firing off rotor face 2, which the= ecu thinks is rotor face 1.=A0=A0 No camshaft, or cam timing issues,=A0 bu= t what the heck am I missing?=0A=0ATom=0A=0A=0A=0A_________________________= _______=0AFrom: Tracy =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft = =0ASent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:06 PM= =0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......=0A=0A=0ASh= ort answer is no. =A0 It's never that simple.=0ATracy=0A=0ASent from my iPa= d=0A=0AOn Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter wro= te:=0A=0A=0ATracy,=0A>=0A>=0A>If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 cr= ank degrees after the first one, wouldn't that be a zero offset?=0A>=0A>=0A= >My thoughts:=A0 Rotor spins at 1/3 crank speed..... so with 720 crank revo= lutions, that is six ignition events.So each ignition event is 120 degrees = apart.=A0=A0=A0 Yes, I tend to think in 720 crankshaft degrees, to many yea= rsin automotive piston engines.=A0 =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Tom=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A= >From: Tracy =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:43 PM=0A>Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......=0A>=0A>=0A>The r= elay is not needed in this hypothetical fix. =A0 The EC2/3 already has 2 CA= S inputs. =A0All that is needed is a hard definition of sensor offset so th= e software can=A0be written appropriately. =A0( I'm assuming a Renesis engi= ne which has only one CAS in this discussion.)=0A>=0A>=0A>The CAS output is= an AC voltage sine-wave that varies with engine speed. =A0 This is true fo= r both Mazda and Subaru engines (and almost all others). =A0 The sensor is = a variable reluctor type. =A0=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Tracy=0A>=0A>Sent from my iPad= =0A>=0A>On Sep 14, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>On 9/14/2011 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote: =0A>> =0A>>>>>If memory serves, it's 0 to 5vdc= square wave. =0A>>>=A0=0A>>>>>Yes,= but I'm not sure where you are going. You thinking=A0normally closed conta= cts to OEM CAS, norm open to backup CAS? You still have to manage angle off= set. Would be unfortunate to have moisture in relay or turbulence disrupt C= AS. Likely not going to end up with safety improvement. Good creative idea = though. =0AThe rotary engine CAS is set up on a bracket near the front pull= ey. I was envisioning a system where you had a sensor in exactly the same s= pot on the other side of the toothed wheel. You might need an offset altern= ator pulley to make room for it - but then you don't have to worry about an= gles/offsets. It's just a second sensor, ready to go - flip a switch and tr= y an engine restart. If relay reliability was a concern there are always SS= Rs or even just good switching transistors...=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A> --965304187-736427005-1316047251=:13417 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No sooner = did I read what I wrote, and thought DOH! 

<= span>
All I can say is is has been on long day, week= , month.    Hint, the rotor is rotating at 1/3rd crank speed= .  
I'm going step away from the computer and go have a beer!=    

Tom


From:= Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:21 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news a= nd the bad news......

Could you enlighten me? 

I'm missing something pret= ty obvious, but allowing for one "missing spark event"   All my 1= 20 degree trailing offset means is that I'm really firing off rotor face 2,= which the ecu thinks is rotor face 1.   No camshaft, or cam timi= ng issues,  but what the heck am I missing?

Tom

From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary=0A motors in aircraft <= ;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Se= nt: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the= bad news......

Short answer is= no.   It's never that simple.
Tracy

Sent from= my iPad

On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Tom Walter <roundrocktom@yahoo.com> wrote:=

Tracy,

<= /div>
If the second CAS sensor was set up at 120 crank degrees af= ter the first one, wouldn't that be a zero=0A offset?

=
My thoughts:  Rotor spins at 1/3 crank s= peed..... so with 720 crank revolutions, that is six ignition events. So each ignition event is 120 degrees apart.    Yes,= I tend to think in 720 crankshaft degrees, to many years in a= utomotive piston engines. 

Tom






F= rom: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net>
Sent: Wedne= sday, September 14, 2011 4:43 PM
Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news......
<= /font>
The relay is not needed in this hyp= othetical fix.   The EC2/3 already has 2 CAS inputs.  All that is= needed is a hard definition of sensor offset so the software can be written appropriatel= y.  ( I'm assuming a Renesis engine which has only one CAS in this=0A = discussion.)

The CAS output is an AC voltag= e sine-wave that varies with engine speed.   This is true for both Maz= da and Subaru engines (and almost all others).   The sensor is a varia= ble reluctor type.   

Tracy

Sent = from my iPad

On Sep 14, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Chad Robinson <= crobinson@medialantern.com> wrote:<= br>
=0A On 9/14/2011 = 1:48 PM, Al Wick wrote:=0A
=0A =0A = =0A =0A
<What kind of signal is on the CAS= line
=0A
If memory serves, it's 0 to 5vdc square wave. =0A
 
=0A
<Could it go through a relay s= afely?
=0A
Yes, but I'm not sure where you are going. You=0A= thinking normally closed contacts to OEM CAS, norm open to=0A = backup CAS? You still have to manage angle offset. Would be=0A = unfortunate to have moisture in relay or turbulence disrupt CAS.=0A = Likely not going to end up with safety improvement. Good=0A creati= ve idea though.
=0A
=0A The rotary engine CAS is s= et up on a bracket near the front pulley.=0A I was envisioning a system = where you had a sensor in exactly the=0A same spot on the other side of = the toothed wheel. You might need an=0A offset alternator pulley to make= room for it - but then you don't=0A have to worry about angles/offsets.= It's just a second sensor, ready=0A to go - flip a switch and try an en= gine restart. If relay=0A reliability was a concern there are always SSR= s or even just good=0A switching transistors...
=0A
=0A =0A= =0A






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