X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5124511 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:07:23 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1316023608; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=gW/Vv9O7ES3pIIO5hTbc68heESW0dZcUS9wnshWbWn8h3Bj4lIR5rsBRAO1FqShPx R3FZSrx/4CdM8PZsDRJ0vs47TbLIS/i+jNKOqFVdDLcVx45gDh5WxdcOX+64umOxUX AlMaEsIb12Imk/021IhRxQJsAgoSz5hnEb394p94= Received: from Penny (50-39-172-83.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.172.83]) by smtpout06.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABHHB5JHA2ZW5M2 for (sender ); Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <765D119941834B9B826E82C0868424AC@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:05:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01DC_01CC72CE.47F01E90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 42274 X-ContentStamp: 94:47:468882490 X-MAIL-INFO:518f4e2e8f4b431f3b2e4bba3f4f7f7b0a8367ef871b47eb33022f0703b3e79f47432b2bdfab3f9a9a1a634adbfa639a8ab7f38f77a7833bef2e136a0733875eafab5e07da0b071a970fdb5eaa1a5eab7afeb3fe475f02677b234e67430e2fbffbfbcaee57ce1f575f0f1b372e1eebce9b0a87efefef771f5bcb27eb7f4e7b477b43cb434efbbf974b2b9bbbeeae023eba9fefcf074b075e27333b7e5a9bbbaaf7f7af13d39fa31a2a63932e3ebe8a93735bc397dac74b4a5b3a736a238a17eaebf7becb4f938e8b17ce7a57572a0b5f1bb3d7eb1b0fef232fbb7a2f23e3eaf3d72e236ffb4e8f2f434f4e2e2ba73b63433f87 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkDOh/YhLxzkRlfkpi4rR9chPVwwD4ItYQg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.36|smtpout06.dca.untd.com|smtpout06.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01DC_01CC72CE.47F01E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable < It must have been intermittent because the engine still ran fine for = the most part - just a little rough every now and again This is a great example from the real world. If you had multitooth crank = trigger, and measured the integrity of the CAS, Joe would have known = LONG before failure that the sensor was bad. Most sensors don't just = stop, they have partial failures first.=20 If you are walking along the road, want to cross. You use your ear = sensor, compare to history. You hear the clicking of tires and change in = pitch of car approaching from behind you. You verify with second sensor, = your eyes. Compare both to history again. Car is too close to be able to = cross safely. We are "smart" because we constantly use multiple sensors, = compare them to history.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 1:32 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Al, =20 Good points Al. I found an old post from Joe Hull regarding an = interment CAS issue. I think Joe gave up after a spark plug failure that = damaged his apex seals in flight.=20 =20 Bobby =20 =20 "I know I've taken a little flack for my MicroTech computer.but on the = plus side it did tell me a couple of months ago that I had a "bad Crank = Sensor". Of course, it turned out to be a bad connector - the Mazda = factory pig tail coming out of the sensor had a bad connection in the = plug. It must have been intermittent because the engine still ran fine = for the most part - just a little rough every now and again." =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al Wick Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:32 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... =20 = wrote: What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does = the EC2 shutdown? Not a likely candidate. =20 What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop = firing?=20 =20 Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? Steve's = testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. Bill's = muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in the = engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose then a = major blockage is very possible. It would trap all the little pieces = that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large chunks of = cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My second HP seemed = more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks = appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet cone was = loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muffler to the = belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be more = dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My under = cowl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is almost = flat.=20 =20 I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but = may be impossible to validate.=20 =20 =20 Bobby =20 =20 =20 Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" = wrote: We still don't know (and may never),the causes, but Sam's and = Bills incidents based on initial information would appear to me to be = two different causes.=20 =20 Sam's engine kept running - although sputtering and producing = no power - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor = lock, possibly something else - could be muffler blockage). Bill's on = the other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds = more like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the = injector stopped or the spark stopped. =20 =20 If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to check = out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the = answer. If both check OK then more head scratching. =20 Ed =20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... =20 Bill, =20 I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. = I don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would = stop running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. = Three aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is too many. = If you have leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors = on separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That leaves = fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side = computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during = his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the = second item in my emergency flow.=20 =20 One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that = has packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three = incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals.=20 =20 Bobby =20 =20 =20 =20 Sent from my iPad On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" = wrote: I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are = in, but that might never happen, so here we go. Good news: No injuries. =20 Bad news: I have some work to do. Photos at: http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101 On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home = airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished = changing the oil and filter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. = Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it = suddenly and without any warning became very silent. Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to = everything engine, but no noise. No more time. At this point flying = the machine becomes THE priority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to = see a little bit of runway under the nose! I had fully expected to land = in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down = to capture as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the = electric flap switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later). = Pulled probably my best round-out ever - no bounce. Brakes to max and = tail up for weight. I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the = nose to try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill. Wheel = skid starts about 200 feet from the stopping point. Skid marks from the = wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stopped = nose down just off the end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed = the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not = even scared by the whole event. Interesting. Never even considered = trying to turn around. Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid = off. =20 More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable = incident. Didn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in = a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles = away. The police and rescue types were headed that way (they had = injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap. As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the = prop would turn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on = inside. First try at turning had it come up hard and stop. More = fooling with it and it gradually came looser and would turn. Really = looked like something came loose in there. Pulled a plug from each = rotor and did a compression test. Rotor 1 was 80-80-80. Rotor 2 was = 2-2-2. More proof that something had come loose. With that evidence, = the insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection. = What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals were = still fine. Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came from. = Went through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason = Hutchison (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV = was standing on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran = back up the manifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was = grinding. Crap. Now the entire thing is off the firewall including the = engine mount. All the wiring is disconnected (did not find anything = loose or missing). I spent the morning looking under the panel for any = loose or broken wiring, but found none. When I get the EC-2 out, Jason = wants to plug it into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors = test. If that checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look. = I don't know what else to check. The engine quit just like somebody = reached over and turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup, just = instant silence. I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or not. = I suspect not, due to the silence and the fact that one blade is = untouched. As you can see from the photos, there was something going on = with Rotor 1. Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all = 3 apex seals are starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot = of carbon also on the rotors after 170 hours. Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for = if/when my RV-12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. = The rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I = have no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and = parts are already on the way. I will still be hanging out at the engine = tent at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by = the first of next year.... I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might = have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind = I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel = pumps were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked = fine. Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor = (Ed's), Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine = parts (my whole 14-year stash) available! And priced to sell! Bill Eslick RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A 750 Hours =20 ------=_NextPart_000_01DC_01CC72CE.47F01E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
< It must have = been=20 intermittent because the engine still ran fine for the most part =96 = just a little=20 rough every now and again
 
This is a great example = from the real=20 world. If you had multitooth crank trigger, and measured the integrity = of the=20 CAS, Joe would have known LONG before failure that the sensor was bad. = Most=20 sensors don't just stop, they have partial failures first.
 
If you are walking = along the road,=20 want to cross. You use your ear sensor, compare to history. You hear the = clicking of tires and change in pitch of car approaching from behind = you. You=20 verify with second sensor, your eyes. Compare both to history again. Car = is too=20 close to be able to cross safely. We are "smart" because we constantly = use=20 multiple sensors, compare them to history.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bobby J. = Hughes=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, = 2011 1:32=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = good news=20 and the bad news......

Al,

 

Good=20 points Al. I found an old post from Joe Hull regarding an interment = CAS issue.=20 I think Joe gave up after a spark plug failure that damaged his apex = seals in=20 flight.

 

Bobby

 

 

=93I=20 know I=92ve taken a little flack for my MicroTech computer=85but on = the plus side=20 it did tell me a couple of months ago that I had a =93bad Crank = Sensor=94.=20  Of course, it turned out to be a bad connector - the Mazda = factory pig=20 tail coming out of the sensor had a bad connection in the plug. =  It must=20 have been intermittent because the engine still ran fine for the most = part =96=20 just a little rough every now and again.=94

 

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al=20 Wick
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:32 = AM
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news = and the=20 bad news......

 

<An open CAS would cause instant shutdown=20

 

The Oem = guys have=20 such a brilliant solution for this. They know from history that = sensors=20 occasionally fail. So they plan on it. Every revolution they count the = number=20 of pulses they saw from the CAS. So normally they see 16 pulses, with = 2=20 breaks. The toothed wheel is missing teeth at two different spots. One = area=20 missing 3 teeth, one missing 4 teeth. So when they see TDC, they say = "Hey,=20 how'd the sensor do last revolution? Did we get 16 total pulses? Did = we see=20 both a 3 tooth break and a 4 tooth break? No? Ok, then let's use = the=20 backup sensor and turn on the fault lamp.

 

They also = measure=20 the integrity of the backup sensor. Pretty simple really, it's just = software=20 calculations. Comparing to history. The other cool thing, once you = develop=20 this logic, you have it forever. Every future pilot has a ton of extra = safety=20 if he needs it. They do this with all critical sensors. Oh, yeah. The = other=20 cool thing is that the engine takes longer to start. So the user = doesn't just=20 get fault light, they also get poor starting feedback. It's just so = brilliant.=20

 

There's = another=20 important lesson here: The KISS concept. So often true, but every once = in a=20 while it's a big mistake. Not a good idea to blindly adopt a = philosophy.=20 Depends on the details. Two CAS sensors are much safer if you compare = readings=20 to history, make a decision.

 

-al=20 wick

 

 

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: Tracy=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: = Saturday,=20 September 10, 2011 7:09 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 The good news and the bad news......

 

I agree that it sounds like electrons Bobby. =   An=20 open CAS would cause instant shutdown but I've never heard of a = Mazda CAS=20 going bad.  Have had reports of bad Subaru=20 CAS's. 

 

BTW, apologies for the confusion about your = fuel system.=20   I was confusing you with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent = power=20 failure.  His sounded like fuel system problem but no further = word from=20 him.

 

Tracy Crook 


Sent from my iPad


On Sep 3, = 2011, at 9:08=20 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>=20 wrote:

What was the system voltage during run up? At = what=20 voltage does the EC2 shutdown?  Not a likely=20 candidate.

 

What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? = Does the=20 EC2 stop firing? 

 

Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine = completely? Steve's testing showed a partial blockage has a major = effect=20 on power. Bill's muffler had to be full of crud for that much to = end up=20 back in the engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and = came loose=20 then a major blockage is very possible. It would trap all the = little=20 pieces that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had = large=20 chunks of cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My = second HP=20 seemed more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large = chunks=20 appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet cone = was=20 loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muffler = to the=20 belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be more = dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My = under=20 cowl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is = almost=20 flat. 

 

I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most = logical=20 cause but may be impossible to = validate. 

 

 

Bobby

 

 

 



Sent from my = iPad


On Sep 3, = 2011, at=20 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

We=20 still don't know (and may never),the causes,  but Sam's and = Bills=20 incidents based on initial information would appear to me to be = two=20 different causes. 

 

 Sam's engine = kept=20 running - although sputtering and producing no power - this = to me=20 sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor lock, = possibly=20 something else - could be muffler blockage).  Bill's on the = other=20 hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds = more like=20 an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the injector = stopped=20 or the spark stopped. 

 

If I=20 were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to check out = each=20 circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the=20 answer.  If both check OK then  more head=20 scratching.

 

Ed

 

From: = Bobby = J.=20 Hughes

Sent: = Saturday,=20 September 03, 2011 9:43 AM

To: = Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: The good news and the bad=20 news......

 

Bill,

 

I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad = you=20 weren't injured. I don't know at what percentage of exhaust = blockage the=20 engine would stop running. Also no reports on the condition of = Sam's HP2=20 muffler. Three aircraft experiencing very similar problems this = year is=20 too many. If you have  leading / trailing plugs and primary = /=20 secondary injectors on separate power feeds then it should have = kept=20 running. That leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, = Controller=20 power, A side computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did = switch=20 controllers during his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time = to do=20 so. It's now the second item in my emergency=20 flow. 

 

One common item can be eliminated be = removing any=20 muffler that has packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are = common=20 to all three incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had = loose=20 internals. 

 

Bobby

 

 

 

 



Sent from my = iPad


On Sep 2, = 2011, at=20 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" <wgeslick@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

I=20 have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are = in, but=20 that might never happen, so here we go.


Good=20 news:  No injuries. 

Bad news:  I have = some=20 work to do.

Photos at:  http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101

On=20 August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home = airport (3600'=20 paved) into a 5 knot headwind.  I had just finished = changing the=20 oil and filter and plugs.  Run-up was fine, so off I = went. =20 Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the = air, it=20 suddenly and without any warning became very = silent.

Hit the=20 big switch which puts direct battery power to everything = engine, but=20 no noise.  No more time.  At this point flying the = machine=20 becomes THE priority.  Dropped the nose and was amazed to = see a=20 little bit of runway under the nose!  I had fully = expected to=20 land in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like = straight down to capture as much runway as possible while = (somehow)=20 holding the electric flap switch long enough to get full flaps = (noticed this later).  Pulled probably my best round-out = ever -=20 no bounce.  Brakes to max and tail up for weight.  I = think=20 my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to try to = prevent going=20 through the fence and down the hill.  Wheel skid starts = about 200=20 feet from the stopping point.  Skid marks from the wheel = pants,=20 cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet.  It stopped = nose=20 down just off the end.  The tail was still over = pavement. =20 Pushed the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down.  = Noticed=20 that I was not even scared by the whole event. =20 Interesting.  Never even considered trying to turn = around. =20 Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid off.  =

More=20 good news.  No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable=20 incident.  Didn't even bend the gear legs.  Also, my = neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at = the city=20 airport about 10 miles away.  The police and rescue types = were=20 headed that way (they had injuries) and were not interested in = my=20 minor mishap.

As for the engine.  When we got it = back to=20 the hangar, the prop would turn only haltingly.  You = could feel=20 grinding going on inside.  First try at turning had it = come up=20 hard and stop.  More fooling with it and it gradually = came looser=20 and would turn.  Really looked like something came loose = in=20 there.  Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a = compression=20 test.  Rotor 1 was 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was = 2-2-2.  More=20 proof that something had come loose.  With that evidence, = the=20 insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for=20 inspection.  What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic = junk.  All the seals were still fine.  Lots of time = went in=20 to finding where that stuff came from.  Went through = every inch=20 of the induction system.  Finally Jason Hutchison (my = other=20 on-airport rotary guy) broke the code.  While the RV was = standing=20 on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran = back up=20 the manifold and in the exhaust port.  That is what was=20 grinding.  Crap.  Now the entire thing is off the = firewall=20 including the engine mount.  All the wiring is = disconnected (did=20 not find anything loose or missing).  I spent the morning = looking=20 under the panel for any loose or broken wiring, but found = none. =20 When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his plane = and=20 we'll do the plugs and injectors test.  If that checks = out,=20 Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look.  I don't know = what=20 else to check.  The engine quit just like somebody = reached over=20 and turned off the ignition.  No stumble, no hiccup, just = instant=20 silence.  I honestly do not know if the prop was turning = or=20 not.  I suspect not, due to the silence and the fact that = one=20 blade is untouched.

As you can see from the photos, = there was=20 something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is apparent down = stream=20 from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to chip = in the=20 center.  There is quite a lot of carbon also on the = rotors after=20 170 hours.

Going forward, I have decided to look at = resale=20 value for if/when my RV-12 days arrive.  This means = putting a=20 (gasp) IO-360 on it.  The rotary has given me a safe = 10-year run=20 (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, but this is an = opportunity=20 to make some changes, and parts are already on the way.  = I will=20 still be hanging out at the engine tent at S-n-F and wherever = else=20 gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying by the first of = next=20 year....

I'm sure some of you will have suggestions = about what=20 might have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, = but bear=20 in mind I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this = point.  Both fuel pumps were on, tanks were over half = full, crank=20 angle sensor worked fine.

Guess it's obvious that I now = have a=20 RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's),  Felix 68/72 and Props = Inc 68/72=20 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my whole 14-year stash)=20 available!  And priced to sell!

Bill Eslick
RV-6 13B/NA EC-2=20 RD-1A
750 Hours

 

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