X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5124488 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:43:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1316022176; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=OMyBNPaefkjGPoHTRBJKHFc7SEjD2q3VwYKzJp+pxn6qQdG5RZA29qwHnOkGt+tg5 5Gw175BF6akowt2JNhCs7i+NhUPEymvbA5bpY2t/QjbAomZVaDzTeb0pdLebCOmI47 mI/mIdUdYDj9s5HPHg2z+qeme7MKiibA+k/YPs+Q= Received: from Penny (50-39-172-83.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.172.83]) by smtpout04.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABHHB35ZAR8Z2AA for (sender ); Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4DB78F031DEB4092AB6DC05ADFAF2E45@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 10:42:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CC72CA.F6F5B5C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 34420 X-ContentStamp: 91:45:643371331 X-MAIL-INFO:4d4e2b2f8ffb2be3a70e3e9b9b5be7b3fe2eb30feb6f7e5aae1bfeef02779f9f9f132e8b6a7a1f2e4bfba747233ff30efb034be3fa1f875af7fe7a4383efd3139f5e9b5edbe72a37aabb77f7dedadadf973ad3ce631a5bc73f83abda731eb76393ba6aa3171ebf5b9e0bfe975e938b9eb3a3aea31b5e1bb3477a377beb034bf3c3571be72b7b473ea74343932f23bae3fb4bba8f6337ef8aa7ef37ab0afefbd337cfaabe7eef2a1bbed3bb5e970f2a3ade X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkIk0t0LFExK4OUkZTCkEuP5FTxji2NgrXQ== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.34|smtpout04.dca.untd.com|smtpout04.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CC72CA.F6F5B5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wrote: = wrote: What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does = the EC2 shutdown? Not a likely candidate. What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop = firing?=20 Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? = Steve's testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. = Bill's muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in = the engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose then = a major blockage is very possible. It would trap all the little pieces = that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large chunks of = cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My second HP seemed = more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks = appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet cone was = loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muffler to the = belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be more = dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My under = cowl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is almost = flat.=20 I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but = may be impossible to validate.=20 Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" = wrote: We still don't know (and may never),the causes, but Sam's and = Bills incidents based on initial information would appear to me to be = two different causes.=20 Sam's engine kept running - although sputtering and producing = no power - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor = lock, possibly something else - could be muffler blockage). Bill's on = the other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds = more like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the = injector stopped or the spark stopped. =20 If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to = check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably = the answer. If both check OK then more head scratching. Ed From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Bill, I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't = injured. I don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine = would stop running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 = muffler. Three aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is = too many. If you have leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary = injectors on separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That = leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side = computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during = his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the = second item in my emergency flow.=20 One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that = has packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three = incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals.=20 Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" = wrote: I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts = are in, but that might never happen, so here we go. Good news: No injuries. =20 Bad news: I have some work to do. Photos at: http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101 On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home = airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished = changing the oil and filter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. = Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it = suddenly and without any warning became very silent. Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to = everything engine, but no noise. No more time. At this point flying = the machine becomes THE priority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to = see a little bit of runway under the nose! I had fully expected to land = in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down = to capture as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the = electric flap switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later). = Pulled probably my best round-out ever - no bounce. Brakes to max and = tail up for weight. I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the = nose to try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill. Wheel = skid starts about 200 feet from the stopping point. Skid marks from the = wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stopped = nose down just off the end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed = the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not = even scared by the whole event. Interesting. Never even considered = trying to turn around. Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid = off. =20 More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable = incident. Didn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in = a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles = away. The police and rescue types were headed that way (they had = injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap. As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the = prop would turn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on = inside. First try at turning had it come up hard and stop. More = fooling with it and it gradually came looser and would turn. Really = looked like something came loose in there. Pulled a plug from each = rotor and did a compression test. Rotor 1 was 80-80-80. Rotor 2 was = 2-2-2. More proof that something had come loose. With that evidence, = the insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection. = What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals were = still fine. Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came from. = Went through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason = Hutchison (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV = was standing on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran = back up the manifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was = grinding. Crap. Now the entire thing is off the firewall including the = engine mount. All the wiring is disconnected (did not find anything = loose or missing). I spent the morning looking under the panel for any = loose or broken wiring, but found none. When I get the EC-2 out, Jason = wants to plug it into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors = test. If that checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look. = I don't know what else to check. The engine quit just like somebody = reached over and turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup, just = instant silence. I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or not. = I suspect not, due to the silence and the fact that one blade is = untouched. As you can see from the photos, there was something going on = with Rotor 1. Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all = 3 apex seals are starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot = of carbon also on the rotors after 170 hours. Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for = if/when my RV-12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. = The rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I = have no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and = parts are already on the way. I will still be hanging out at the engine = tent at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by = the first of next year.... I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might = have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind = I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel = pumps were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked = fine. Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI = Monitor (Ed's), Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of = engine parts (my whole 14-year stash) available! And priced to sell! Bill Eslick RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A 750 Hours ------=_NextPart_000_01B2_01CC72CA.F6F5B5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<No Sube that I know of had 2 crank sensors
All modern Subaru OEM ecu's use the method I described. They = measure=20 integrity of sensor as described. They dump the CAS sensor if it's = unstable and=20 use the cam sensor instead. No limping involved. I mention this because = it's=20 such a safety advantage. It's an extremely important principal.
 
Obviously you can replace the cam sensor with a second CAS that's = offset x=20 degrees. Many of the aftermarket ecu's allow such an offset. Perfect for = rotary.=20 More important, you can do this with all sensors that can result in shut = down.=20 For example, they'll dynamically adjust mixture unless sensor is = behaving=20 strange. Then they use tables created when sensor was working ok. I = know, you=20 use tables. I'm describing the concept of measuring sensor integrity, = compare to=20 history, they go to plan B.
 
<Subaru also changes their crank sensing scheme more often than = any=20 others
Yes, I've heard.
 
<dead in the water if the crank sensor fails.
Not true with any of the modern engines. You can prove it, just = have=20 someone pull the plug.
 
-al wick
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, = 2011 1:26=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = good news=20 and the bad news......

Depends on what OEM guys you are talking about.    =20     No Sube that I know of had 2 = crank sensors=20 except for the EG-33 six cylinder (RIP).    SOME of the piston OEMs make it = possible=20 to limp home on the Crank sensor IF it's the cam sensor that fails. =   In=20 all but one example I know of, you are still dead in the water if the = crank=20 sensor fails.   All Subarus 2005 and later are this way and most = of the=20 ones before.  Subaru also changes their crank sensing scheme more = often=20 than any others which is a PITA for me : ).

Rotaries lack a cam sensor for obvious reasons so the partial = backup=20 scheme is not an option.

Tracy Crook
Sent from my iPad

On Sep 13, 2011, at 10:32 AM, "Al Wick" <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:

<An open CAS would cause instant shutdown
 
The Oem guys have such a brilliant = solution for=20 this. They know from history that sensors occasionally fail. So they = plan on=20 it. Every revolution they count the number of pulses they saw from = the CAS.=20 So normally they see 16 pulses, with 2 breaks. The toothed wheel is = missing=20 teeth at two different spots. One area missing 3 teeth, one missing = 4 teeth.=20 So when they see TDC, they say "Hey, how'd the sensor do last = revolution?=20 Did we get 16 total pulses? Did we see both a 3 tooth break and = a 4=20 tooth break? No? Ok, then let's use the backup sensor and turn on = the fault=20 lamp.
 
They also measure the integrity of = the backup=20 sensor. Pretty simple really, it's just software calculations. = Comparing to=20 history. The other cool thing, once you develop this logic, you have = it=20 forever. Every future pilot has a ton of extra safety if he needs = it. They=20 do this with all critical sensors. Oh, yeah. The other cool thing is = that=20 the engine takes longer to start. So the user doesn't just get fault = light,=20 they also get poor starting feedback. It's just so brilliant. =
 
There's another important lesson = here: The KISS=20 concept. So often true, but every once in a while it's a big = mistake. Not a=20 good idea to blindly adopt a philosophy. Depends on the details. Two = CAS=20 sensors are much safer if you compare readings to history, make a = decision.=20
 
-al wick
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tracy=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, September = 10, 2011=20 7:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = The good=20 news and the bad news......

I agree that it sounds like electrons Bobby.   An open = CAS would=20 cause instant shutdown but I've never heard of a Mazda CAS going = bad.=20  Have had reports of bad Subaru CAS's. 

BTW, apologies for the confusion about your fuel system. =   I was=20 confusing you with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent power = failure.=20  His sounded like fuel system problem but no further word = from=20 him.

Tracy Crook 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net>=20 wrote:

What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage = does the=20 EC2 shutdown?  Not a likely candidate.

What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 = stop=20 firing? 

Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? = Steve's=20 testing showed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. = Bill's=20 muffler had to be full of crud for that much to end up back in = the=20 engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly intact and came loose = then a=20 major blockage is very possible. It would trap all the little = pieces=20 that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had large = chunks of=20 cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My second HP = seemed=20 more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks = appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet = cone was=20 loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second = muffler to the=20 belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be = more=20 dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. = My under=20 cowl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is = almost=20 flat. 

I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause = but may=20 be impossible to validate. 


Bobby





Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>=20 wrote:

We still don't know (and may = never),the causes,=20  but Sam's and Bills incidents based on initial = information would=20 appear to me to be two different causes. 
 
 Sam's engine kept running = - although=20 sputtering and producing no power - this to me sounds like a = fuel=20 related problem (possibly vapor lock, possibly something else = - could=20 be muffler blockage).  Bill's on the other hand quit = suddenly and=20 without any warning - that to me sounds more like an = electrical=20 problem - either the firing pulses to the injector stopped or = the=20 spark stopped. 
 
If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's = diagnostic=20 modes to check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out = then that=20 is probably the answer.  If both check OK then  more = head=20 scratching.
 
Ed

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad = news......

Bill,

I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't = injured.=20 I don't know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine = would=20 stop running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 = muffler.=20 Three aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is = too=20 many. If you have  leading / trailing plugs and primary / = secondary injectors on separate power feeds then it should = have kept=20 running. That leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit,=20 Controller power, A side computer issue or muffler? I believe = Sam did=20 switch controllers during his incident. I didn't and had = plenty of=20 time to do so. It's now the second item in my emergency=20 flow. 

One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler = that=20 has packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to = all three=20 incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose=20 internals. 

Bobby






Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" <wgeslick@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

I=20 have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are = in, but=20 that might never happen, so here we go.

Good news:  No=20 injuries. 

Bad news:  I have some work to=20 do.

Photos at:  http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101<= /STRONG>

On = August 16th at 10=20 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) = into a 5=20 knot headwind.  I had just finished changing the oil = and filter=20 and plugs.  Run-up was fine, so off I went.  = Approximately=20 mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it = suddenly and=20 without any warning became very silent.

Hit the big = switch=20 which puts direct battery power to everything engine, but no = noise.  No more time.  At this point flying the = machine=20 becomes THE priority.  Dropped the nose and was amazed = to see a=20 little bit of runway under the nose!  I had fully = expected to=20 land in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed = like=20 straight down to capture as much runway as possible while = (somehow)=20 holding the electric flap switch long enough to get full = flaps=20 (noticed this later).  Pulled probably my best = round-out ever -=20 no bounce.  Brakes to max and tail up for weight.  = I think=20 my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to try to = prevent=20 going through the fence and down the hill.  Wheel skid = starts=20 about 200 feet from the stopping point.  Skid marks = from the=20 wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 = feet.  It=20 stopped nose down just off the end.  The tail was still = over=20 pavement.  Pushed the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out = and=20 down.  Noticed that I was not even scared by the whole=20 event.  Interesting.  Never even considered trying = to turn=20 around.  Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid=20 off. 

More good news.  No FAA or NTSB as = it was a=20 non-reportable incident.  Didn't even bend the gear = legs. =20 Also, my neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes = earlier=20 at the city airport about 10 miles away.  The police = and rescue=20 types were headed that way (they had injuries) and were not=20 interested in my minor mishap.

As for the = engine.  When=20 we got it back to the hangar, the prop would turn only=20 haltingly.  You could feel grinding going on = inside. =20 First try at turning had it come up hard and stop.  = More=20 fooling with it and it gradually came looser and would = turn. =20 Really looked like something came loose in there.  = Pulled a=20 plug from each rotor and did a compression test.  Rotor = 1 was=20 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was 2-2-2.  More proof that = something=20 had come loose.  With that evidence, the insurance = company=20 allowed me to remove the engine for inspection.  What I = found=20 was a pile of ground up ceramic junk.  All the seals = were still=20 fine.  Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff = came=20 from.  Went through every inch of the induction = system. =20 Finally Jason Hutchison (my other on-airport rotary guy) = broke the=20 code.  While the RV was standing on it's nose, this = crap from=20 my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the manifold and in = the=20 exhaust port.  That is what was grinding.  = Crap.  Now=20 the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine=20 mount.  All the wiring is disconnected (did not find = anything=20 loose or missing).  I spent the morning looking under = the panel=20 for any loose or broken wiring, but found none.  When I = get the=20 EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his plane and we'll do = the=20 plugs and injectors test.  If that checks out, Tracy, = it is=20 coming to you for a good look.  I don't know what else = to=20 check.  The engine quit just like somebody reached over = and=20 turned off the ignition.  No stumble, no hiccup, just = instant=20 silence.  I honestly do not know if the prop was = turning or=20 not.  I suspect not, due to the silence and the fact = that one=20 blade is untouched.

As you can see from the photos, = there was=20 something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is apparent down = stream=20 from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to = chip in the=20 center.  There is quite a lot of carbon also on the = rotors=20 after 170 hours.

Going forward, I have decided to = look at=20 resale value for if/when my RV-12 days arrive.  This = means=20 putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it.  The rotary has given me = a safe=20 10-year run (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, but = this is=20 an opportunity to make some changes, and parts are already = on the=20 way.  I will still be hanging out at the engine tent at = S-n-F=20 and wherever else gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying = by the=20 first of next year....

I'm sure some of you will have = suggestions about what might have gone wrong, and I welcome = any kind=20 of speculation, but bear in mind I am just looking at a pile = of=20 parts and wires at this point.  Both fuel pumps were = on, tanks=20 were over half full, crank angle sensor worked = fine.

Guess=20 it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor=20 (Ed's),  Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and = LOTS of=20 engine parts (my whole 14-year stash) available!  And = priced to=20 sell!

Bill Eslick
RV-6 = 13B/NA EC-2=20 RD-1A
750=20 = Hours



=
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