X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5119985 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 10:09:47 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by ywp31 with SMTP id 31so2266373ywp.25 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 07:09:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=t4Bzeh5QRm+u0Snqnvv6bLoyA/4Eme+HafUCmpazhZ8=; b=cJKJvFRBoDjZ7YNcr1wW1zNSAkbmXSZiVmqhZtBHMXr6JKPO4xjk1hSluSA1OX7TPf 9BpqeEhVWeEC6tqHBYlyCOcw/anRocVmL5ugImsLjO2vUsI/YtYyWOrYbz199Ttrgy+u padS/Laim1PhEJjZIWi9UvxmM7ew0V9adNyFA= Received: by 10.100.235.3 with SMTP id i3mr2589690anh.164.1315663751058; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 07:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [75.249.146.86] (86.sub-75-249-146.myvzw.com [75.249.146.86]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m4sm8169985ang.4.2011.09.10.07.09.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 10 Sep 2011 07:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... References: From: Tracy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-201615410 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8F191) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:09:05 -0600 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8F191) --Apple-Mail-2-201615410 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree that it sounds like electrons Bobby. An open CAS would cause insta= nt shutdown but I've never heard of a Mazda CAS going bad. Have had reports= of bad Subaru CAS's.=20 BTW, apologies for the confusion about your fuel system. I was confusing y= ou with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent power failure. His sounded like f= uel system problem but no further word from him. Tracy Crook=20 Sent from my iPad On Sep 3, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" wrote: > What was the system voltage during run up? At what voltage does the EC2 sh= utdown? Not a likely candidate. >=20 > What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? Does the EC2 stop firing?=20 >=20 > Will a exhaust blockage of ?% stop the engine completely? Steve's testing s= howed a partial blockage has a major effect on power. Bill's muffler had to b= e full of crud for that much to end up back in the engine. If the HP2 lower c= one was partly intact and came loose then a major blockage is very possible.= It would trap all the little pieces that had been collecting in the muffler= . My first HP had large chunks of cone still intact along with all the littl= e pieces. My second HP seemed more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning= less large chunks appeared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The ou= tlet cone was loose but more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muff= ler to the belly would extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be mor= e dangerous since the small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My under c= owl muffler was mounted at a downward angle. Belly mount is almost flat.=20 >=20 > I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but may be imp= ossible to validate.=20 >=20 >=20 > Bobby >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" wro= te: >=20 >> We still don't know (and may never),the causes, but Sam's and Bills inci= dents based on initial information would appear to me to be two different ca= uses.=20 >> =20 >> Sam's engine kept running - although sputtering and producing no power -= this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor lock, possibl= y something else - could be muffler blockage). Bill's on the other hand qui= t suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds more like an electric= al problem - either the firing pulses to the injector stopped or the spark s= topped.=20 >> =20 >> If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to check out each c= ircuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the answer. If both= check OK then more head scratching. >> =20 >> Ed >>=20 >> From: Bobby J. Hughes >> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... >>=20 >> Bill, >>=20 >> I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. I don't k= now at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would stop running. Al= so no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three aircraft experien= cing very similar problems this year is too many. If you have leading / tra= iling plugs and primary / secondary injectors on separate power feeds then i= t should have kept running. That leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circ= uit, Controller power, A side computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did s= witch controllers during his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do= so. It's now the second item in my emergency flow.=20 >>=20 >> One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that has packin= g. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three incidents. I'm a= ssuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals.=20 >>=20 >> Bobby >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" wrote: >>=20 >>> I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but th= at might never happen, so here we go. >>>=20 >>> Good news: No injuries. =20 >>>=20 >>> Bad news: I have some work to do. >>>=20 >>> Photos at: http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101 >>>=20 >>> On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600= ' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished changing the oil and f= ilter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. Approximately mid-field, a= nd a couple of hundred feet in the air, it suddenly and without any warning b= ecame very silent. >>>=20 >>> Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to everything engine,= but no noise. No more time. At this point flying the machine becomes THE p= riority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little bit of runway unde= r the nose! I had fully expected to land in trees, houses or the river, so I= dove what seemed like straight down to capture as much runway as possible w= hile (somehow) holding the electric flap switch long enough to get full flap= s (noticed this later). Pulled probably my best round-out ever - no bounce.= Brakes to max and tail up for weight. I think my sub-concious put it all t= he way on the nose to try to prevent going through the fence and down the hi= ll. Wheel skid starts about 200 feet from the stopping point. Skid marks f= rom the wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stoppe= d nose down just off the end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed the= slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not even sc= ared by the whole event. Interesting. Never even considered trying to turn= around. Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid off. =20 >>>=20 >>> More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable incident. Di= dn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in a Challenger abo= ut 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles away. The police a= nd rescue types were headed that way (they had injuries) and were not intere= sted in my minor mishap. >>>=20 >>> As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the prop would tu= rn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on inside. First try at t= urning had it come up hard and stop. More fooling with it and it gradually c= ame looser and would turn. Really looked like something came loose in there= . Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a compression test. Rotor 1 was 80= -80-80. Rotor 2 was 2-2-2. More proof that something had come loose. With= that evidence, the insurance company allowed me to remove the engine for in= spection. What I found was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals= were still fine. Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came fro= m. Went through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason Hutchiso= n (my other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV was standin= g on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the ma= nifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was grinding. Crap. Now the e= ntire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount. All the wiring i= s disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing). I spent the mornin= g looking under the panel for any loose or broken wiring, but found none. W= hen I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his plane and we'll do t= he plugs and injectors test. If that checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you= for a good look. I don't know what else to check. The engine quit just li= ke somebody reached over and turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup= , just instant silence. I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or n= ot. I suspect not, due to the silence and the fact that one blade is untouc= hed. >>>=20 >>> As you can see from the photos, there was something going on with Rotor 1= . Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are= starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot of carbon also on the= rotors after 170 hours. >>>=20 >>> Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for if/when my RV-= 12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. The rotary has g= iven me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I have no regrets, but t= his is an opportunity to make some changes, and parts are already on the way= . I will still be hanging out at the engine tent at S-n-F and wherever else= gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by the first of next year.... >>>=20 >>> I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might have gone wr= ong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind I am just looki= ng at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel pumps were on, tan= ks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked fine. >>>=20 >>> Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's), Fe= lix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my whole 1= 4-year stash) available! And priced to sell! >>>=20 >>> Bill Eslick >>> RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A >>> 750 Hours >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail-2-201615410 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I agree that it sounds like electrons B= obby.   An open CAS would cause instant shutdown but I've never heard o= f a Mazda CAS going bad.  Have had reports of bad Subaru CAS's. 

BTW, apologies for the confusion about your fuel sys= tem.   I was confusing you with Sam Hoskins who also had a recent power= failure.  His sounded like fuel system problem but no further word fro= m him.

Tracy Crook 

Sent from my= iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "Bobby J. Hughes" <bhughes@qnsi.net> wrote:

<= div>
What was the system voltage du= ring run up? At what voltage does the EC2 shutdown?  Not a likely candi= date.

What happens when the CAS circuit goes open? D= oes the EC2 stop firing? 

Will a exhaust block= age of ?% stop the engine completely? Steve's testing showed a partial block= age has a major effect on power. Bill's muffler had to be full of crud for t= hat much to end up back in the engine. If the HP2 lower cone was partly inta= ct and came loose then a major blockage is very possible. It would trap all t= he little pieces that had been collecting in the muffler. My first HP had la= rge chunks of cone still intact along with all the little pieces. My second H= P seemed more intact when my incident occurred. Meaning less large chunks ap= peared to be loose but plenty of the small crud. The outlet cone was loose b= ut more intact. I had hoped that moving the second muffler to the belly woul= d extend it's life but it didn't. In fact it may be more dangerous since the= small pieces can't be discharged as easily. My under cowl muffler was mount= ed at a downward angle. Belly mount is almost flat. 

I agree Ed that electrons seem to be the most logical cause but may b= e impossible to validate. 


Bobb= y





Sent from m= y iPad

On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:20 AM, "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

We still don't know (and may never),the causes, &n= bsp;but=20 Sam's and Bills incidents based on initial information would appear to me to= be=20 two different causes. 
 
 Sam's engine kept running - although sp= uttering=20 and producing no power - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (poss= ibly=20 vapor lock, possibly something else - could be muffler blockage).  Bill= 's=20 on the other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds m= ore=20 like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the injector stoppe= d or=20 the spark stopped. 
 
If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic m= odes to=20 check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the=20= answer.  If both check OK then  more head scratching.
=
 
Ed

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad=20 news......

Bill,

I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. I don'= t=20 know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would stop running. A= lso=20 no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three aircraft experiencin= g=20 very similar problems this year is too many. If you have  leading /=20 trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors on separate power feeds the= n it=20 should have kept running. That leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS circui= t,=20 Controller power, A side computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch= =20 controllers during his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. I= t's=20 now the second item in my emergency flow. 

One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that has pack= ing.=20 Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three incidents. I'm=20 assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals. 

Bobby






Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" <wgeslick@gmail.com> wrote:

I hav= e been=20 holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but that might never= =20 happen, so here we go.

Good news:  No injuries. =20

Bad news:  I have some work to do.

Photos at: =20= http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101

On Aug= ust 16th at 10 AM, I=20 lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot=20 headwind.  I had just finished changing the oil and filter and=20 plugs.  Run-up was fine, so off I went.  Approximately mid-field= ,=20 and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it suddenly and without any warni= ng=20 became very silent.

Hit the big switch which puts direct battery po= wer=20 to everything engine, but no noise.  No more time.  At this poin= t=20 flying the machine becomes THE priority.  Dropped the nose and was am= azed=20 to see a little bit of runway under the nose!  I had fully expected t= o=20 land in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight do= wn=20 to capture as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric= =20 flap switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later).  Pull= ed=20 probably my best round-out ever - no bounce.  Brakes to max and tail u= p=20 for weight.  I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose t= o=20 try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill.  Wheel skid= =20 starts about 200 feet from the stopping point.  Skid marks from the w= heel=20 pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet.  It stopped nose d= own=20 just off the end.  The tail was still over pavement.  Pushed the= =20 slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down.  Noticed that I was not e= ven=20 scared by the whole event.  Interesting.  Never even considered=20= trying to turn around.  Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid=20= off. 

More good news.  No FAA or NTSB as it was a=20 non-reportable incident.  Didn't even bend the gear legs.  Also,= my=20 neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airp= ort=20 about 10 miles away.  The police and rescue types were headed that wa= y=20 (they had injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap.

As f= or=20 the engine.  When we got it back to the hangar, the prop would turn o= nly=20 haltingly.  You could feel grinding going on inside.  First try a= t=20 turning had it come up hard and stop.  More fooling with it and it=20= gradually came looser and would turn.  Really looked like something c= ame=20 loose in there.  Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a compression=20= test.  Rotor 1 was 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was 2-2-2.  More proo= f=20 that something had come loose.  With that evidence, the insurance com= pany=20 allowed me to remove the engine for inspection.  What I found was a p= ile=20 of ground up ceramic junk.  All the seals were still fine.  Lots= of=20 time went in to finding where that stuff came from.  Went through eve= ry=20 inch of the induction system.  Finally Jason Hutchison (my other=20 on-airport rotary guy) broke the code.  While the RV was standing on i= t's=20 nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the manifold a= nd=20 in the exhaust port.  That is what was grinding.  Crap.  No= w=20 the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount.  All= the=20 wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing).  I s= pent=20 the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken wiring, but fo= und=20 none.  When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his plane= and=20 we'll do the plugs and injectors test.  If that checks out, Tracy, it= is=20 coming to you for a good look.  I don't know what else to check. = ;=20 The engine quit just like somebody reached over and turned off the=20 ignition.  No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence.  I hones= tly=20 do not know if the prop was turning or not.  I suspect not, due to th= e=20 silence and the fact that one blade is untouched.

As you can see fr= om=20 the photos, there was something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is appar= ent=20 down stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to chip i= n=20 the center.  There is quite a lot of carbon also on the rotors after 1= 70=20 hours.

Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for=20= if/when my RV-12 days arrive.  This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on=20= it.  The rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course),= so=20 I have no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and pa= rts=20 are already on the way.  I will still be hanging out at the engine te= nt=20 at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying by t= he=20 first of next year....

I'm sure some of you will have suggestions a= bout=20 what might have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bea= r in=20 mind I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point.  B= oth=20 fuel pumps were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked=20= fine.

Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor= =20 (Ed's),  Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engin= e=20 parts (my whole 14-year stash) available!  And priced to sell!

Bill Eslick
RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A
750=20 Hours



= --Apple-Mail-2-201615410--