X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iy0-f180.google.com ([209.85.210.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5112933 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 16:05:32 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.180; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by iabz7 with SMTP id z7so6334910iab.25 for ; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 13:04:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Qip+m5o9AWhgbCt/a8vgDwvqcJVgcdOrEAT6CRzwzRY=; b=EH/d32iirv0K6JPBd5VU8R7UbRa/VfWCaamxqHATQRWIO2Wrsya1gZlSRq6ojAsMe0 6f2jJnujET41siNoHKM2EiH6dOTYQgj3aYSBvDlZJan8fR7T+q9qabOQkYw1Pym+Yfdy o6RaHY9PW0jFxLTpoc3We3u/ODlkWu2EqX5UA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.21.26 with SMTP id h26mr4562679ibb.40.1315080295286; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 13:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.162.67 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 13:04:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:04:55 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151773de96da06c904ac0efd10 --00151773de96da06c904ac0efd10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MP gauges are affected by pressure altitude, not density altitude. Still, at 6700' 20.5" is pretty low. You should be seeing about 2" more than that. Do you suppose the gauge reading could be off? What does it read with the engine stopped? On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Steven W. Boese wrote: > Tim, > > > > I agree with Ed that 20.5" MAP at WOT is low. At 9000' DA I see 23" MAP > here in Laramie, WY on the ground. > > > > At MAP's above the staging threshold, my EC2's fire the primary and > secondary injectors of each rotor simultaneously and always for the same > amount of time. For me, it works best to use Mode 3 to adjust for best > mixture just below the staging threshold MAP. This can be thought of an > adjustment for the primary injector size since those are normally the onl= y > injectors in use below the staging MAP threshold. > > > > Just above the staging threshold MAP and with a default Mode 6 setting, > both the primary and secondary injectors will be firing but for half the > time that the primary injector was originally firing just below the stagi= ng > threshold MAP. Above the staging threshold MAP, Mode 6 can be used > to increase or decrease the time that the primary and secondary injectors > fire instead of just dividing the original primary injector time by 2. > Again, remember that the primary and secondary injectors always fire for = the > same amount of time. Mode 6 thus enables the use of different sized prim= ary > and secondary injectors. > > > > After adjusting mode 3 just below the staging threshold MAP, I adjust the > mixture just above the staging MAP using Mode 6. Due to the effects of > injector lag time, this adjustment is needed even if the primary and > secondary injectors are the same size. > > > > Then I adjust the idle with Mode 2. > > > > I have not noticed that Mode 2 adjustments require readjusting Modes 3 or > 6. > > > > This is what I have observed for my EC2's on a 2 rotor 13B at DA's always > over 6000'. > > > > While not in any way discouraging you from purchasing Tracy's logging > equipment, it is possible to observe and log the controller parameters us= ing > a PC or IPAQ. The details and software can be obtained from the followin= g > web site: > > > > www.rotarycopilot.com > > > > Steve Boese > RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf > of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, September 03, 2011 12:17 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B > > Hi Tim, > > No experience with trying to tune a rotary at 6700 + feet density > altitude. But, 20.5 " Hg MP seems a bit low at WOT - as I can get 22" wh= ile > flying at that altitude, but then perhaps not that far off given your > operating location. > > First, I would double check the cold start wiring - it really sounds > like you could have it wire backwards - the reason I say that is that whe= n I > accidently turn mine on when the engine is at idle the engine immediately > starts to bog and run rough. By fact that when you turn your cold start > switch "ON" it runs smooth strong indicates to me that its acting in > reverse. So I would check the wiring of the cold start and the injector > switches. > > Regarding your idle. I could be wrong, but my understanding is indeed MO= DE > 3 adjusts the overall flow to all injectors (may be different on the 3 > rotor), a value of 128 is what I use/see on my two rotor. It is the only > mode that permits adjusting the primary injector flow. Mode 6 permits > adjusting the secondary flow separately. > > It could be that you have the overall MODE 3 adjustment a bit too rich a= t > 168. The fact that you have to lean it considerably also indicates that. > The fact that the engine gets rough if you try to add more fuel could als= o > indicate too much fuel - excessive fuel getting into you muffler/exhaust > could lead to back firing. > > On the other hand your O2 sensor at one bar (presumably from the lean end= ) > would seem to indicate too lean. Is if possible that your O2 sensor is j= ust > in one of the headers for one of the rotors and while that rotor might be > lean - the other rotors could be running rich? Or do you have it located > where more than one rotor's exhaust hits it? Does the O2 sensor indicato= r > ever show more than one bar???? > > I would suggest adjusting the MODE 3 at idle until you get a nice solid > idle (try 128 or just keep decreasing until the idle smooths out). Then = I > would go to Mode 6 (on the two rotor, I assume it=92s the same on the 3 r= otor) > which is the secondary injector differential adjustment. Then I would > increase that value until you get the high end response you are looking > for. I think you may have it a bit too rich to get a good idle. This ba= sed > on 2 rotor viewpoint. > > Good luck > > Ed > > Edward L. Anderson > Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC > 305 Reefton Road > Weddington, NC 28104 > http://www.andersonee.com > http://www.eicommander.com > > *From:* coastiefamily4 > *Sent:* Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:05 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Tuning 20B > > I have just finished setting MODE 3. I am tuning it at 6700ft here in > Colorado Springs and I could only get 20.5 MP running at 6000 RPMs. It is > running smooth, but I think it could be smoother. I will finish it with > MODE 1. I had to set the Injector flow rate at 163. > > Just finished trying to adjusted the idle setting in MODE 2 and I am stil= l > having a difficult time getting the engine to smooth out at idle. While = at > 1800 rpms with cold start off, fuel pressure at 38psi I have to really l= ean > it out to get it to run smoothly, it is at a setting that is too lean an= d > the engine tries to quit. The O2 reading in just one bar on the scale. Th= en > when I try to increase the mixture she get really really rough and > occasionally will backfire. > > Then when I switch back to MODE 0 and place the cold start switch on she > begins to purr nicely and she is very smoothly. > > I am a little stumped, I know when the cold start is turned on it doubles > the fuel, but at idle with only the primaries firing if the cold start is > turned on will it fire both the primary and secondaries or double the flo= w > on just the primaries and not fire the secondaries? If I new the answer = to > this it would help diagnose the issue. > > I am also battling oil leaks. I have a few of the oil pan bolts leaking,= I > am going to have to pull then out and fill clean the oil out and then pla= ce > them back in with pro seal. I tried with grey gasket maker, with no joy.= I > think i might have also have a leak coming from one of the bolts on the > mounting plate of the RD1C. I am going to have to look into this leak a > little farther. Never ending oil leaks. > > I can handle to leaks, at least I know where they are. > > Any suggestions with the idle tuning. > > I think I might have to purchase the Data Logger from Tracy in order to > see all the values. Luckily, I already wire for it, I just have to hook i= t > up. > > > Tim > > --00151773de96da06c904ac0efd10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MP gauges are affected by pressure altitude, not density altitude.=A0 Still= , at 6700' 20.5" is pretty low.=A0 You should be seeing about 2&qu= ot; more than that.=A0 Do you suppose the gauge reading could be off?=A0 Wh= at does it read with the engine stopped?

On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Steven W. Bo= ese <SBoese@uwyo.ed= u> wrote:

Tim,

=A0

I agree with Ed that 20.5" MAP at WOT is low.=A0 A= t 9000' DA I see 23" MAP here in Laramie, WY on the ground.=

=A0

At MAP's above the staging threshold, my EC2's = fire the primary and secondary injectors of each rotor simultaneously and a= lways for the same amount of time.=A0 For me, it works best to use Mode 3 t= o adjust for best mixture just below the staging threshold MAP.=A0 This can be thought of an adjustment for the primary inj= ector size since those are normally the only injectors in use below the sta= ging MAP threshold.=A0=A0

=A0

Just above the staging threshold MAP and with a default= Mode 6 setting, both the primary and secondary injectors will be firing bu= t=A0for half the time that the primary injector was originally firing just = below the staging threshold MAP.=A0 Above the staging threshold MAP, Mode 6 can be used to=A0increase or decrease=A0= the time that=A0the primary and secondary=A0injectors fire instead of just = dividing the original primary injector time by 2.=A0 Again, remember that= =A0the primary and secondary injectors always fire for the same amount of time.=A0=A0Mode 6 thus=A0enables the use of di= fferent sized primary and secondary injectors.=A0

=A0

After adjusting mode 3 just below the staging threshold= MAP, I adjust the mixture just above the staging MAP using Mode 6.=A0 Due = to the effects of injector lag time, this adjustment is needed even if the = primary and secondary injectors are the same size.

=A0

Then I adjust the idle with Mode 2.

=A0

I have not noticed that Mode 2 adjustments require read= justing Modes 3 or 6.

=A0

This is what I have observed for my EC2's on a 2 ro= tor 13B at DA's always over 6000'.

=A0

While not in any way discouraging you from purchasing T= racy's logging equipment, it is possible to observe and log the control= ler parameters using a PC or IPAQ.=A0 The details and software can be obtai= ned from the following web site:

=A0

www.rotarycopilot.com

=A0

Steve = Boese

RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on be= half of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 12:17 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B

Hi Tim,
=A0
No experience with trying to tune a rotary at 670= 0 + feet density altitude.=A0But, =A020.5 " Hg MP seems a bit low at W= OT - as I can get 22" while flying at that altitude, but then perhaps = not that far off given your operating location.=A0
=A0
First, I =A0would=A0 double check the cold start = wiring - it really sounds like you could have it wire backwards - the reaso= n I say that is that when I accidently turn mine on when the engine is at i= dle the engine immediately starts to bog and run rough.=A0 By fact that when you turn your cold start switch "= ON" it runs smooth strong indicates to me that its acting in reverse.= =A0 So I would check the wiring of the cold start and the injector switches= .
=A0
Regarding your idle.=A0 I could be wrong, but my = understanding is indeed MODE 3=A0 adjusts the overall flow to all injectors= (may be different on the 3 rotor), a value of 128 is what I use/see on my = two rotor.=A0 It is the only mode that permits adjusting the primary injector flow.=A0 Mode 6 permits adjusting the secon= dary flow separately.
=A0
=A0It could be that you have the overall MODE 3 a= djustment a bit too rich at 168.=A0 The fact that you have to lean it consi= derably also indicates that.=A0 The fact that the engine gets rough if you = try to add more fuel could also indicate too much fuel - excessive fuel getting into you muffler/exhaust could lead= to back firing.=A0
=A0
On the other hand your O2 sensor at one bar (pres= umably from the lean end) would seem to indicate too lean.=A0 Is if possibl= e that your O2 sensor is just in one of the headers for one of the rotors a= nd while that rotor might be lean - the other rotors could be running rich?=A0 Or do you have it located where= more than one rotor's exhaust hits it?=A0 Does the O2 sensor indicator= ever show more than one bar????
=A0
=A0 I would suggest adjusting the MODE 3 at idle = until you get a nice solid idle (try 128 or just keep decreasing until the = idle smooths out).=A0 Then I would go to Mode 6 (on the two rotor, I=A0assu= me it=92s the same on the 3 rotor) which is the secondary injector differential adjustment.=A0 Then I would increase t= hat value until you get the high end response you are looking for.=A0 I thi= nk you may have it a bit too rich to get a good idle.=A0 This based on 2 ro= tor viewpoint.
=A0
Good luck
=A0
Ed
=A0
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.anderson= ee.com
http://www.eicomma= nder.com

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Tuning 20B

I have just finished setting MODE 3.=A0 I am tuning it at 6700ft here in Co= lorado Springs and I could only get 20.5 MP running at 6000 RPMs. It is run= ning smooth, but I think it could be smoother.=A0 I will finish it with MOD= E 1.=A0 I had to set the Injector flow rate at 163.

Just finished trying to adjusted the idle setting in MODE 2 and I am still = having a difficult time getting the engine to smooth out at idle.=A0 While = at 1800 rpms with cold start off, fuel pressure at 38psi=A0 I have to reall= y lean it out to get it to run smoothly, it is at a setting that=A0 is too lean and the engine tries to quit. The O= 2 reading in just one bar on the scale. Then when I try to increase the mix= ture she get really really rough and occasionally will backfire.=A0

Then when I switch back to MODE 0 and place the cold start switch on she be= gins to purr nicely and she is very smoothly. =A0=A0

I am a little stumped, I know when the cold start is turned on it doubles t= he fuel, but at idle with only the primaries firing if the cold start is tu= rned on will it fire both the primary and secondaries or double the flow on= just the primaries and not fire the secondaries?=A0 If I new the answer to this it would help diagnose the= issue.=A0

I am also battling oil leaks.=A0 I have a few of the oil pan bolts leaking,= I am going to have to pull then out and fill clean the oil out and then pl= ace them back in with pro seal.=A0 I tried with grey gasket maker, with no = joy.=A0 I think i might have also have a leak coming from one of the bolts on the mounting plate of the RD1C.=A0 = I am going to have to look into this leak a little farther.=A0 Never ending= oil leaks.

=A0I can handle to leaks, at least I know where they are.

Any suggestions with the idle tuning.

=A0I think I might have to purchase the Data Logger from Tracy in order to = see all the values. Luckily, I already wire for it, I just have to hook it = up.


Tim


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