X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from aspensprings.uwyo.edu ([129.72.10.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTPS id 5112940 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 15:47:42 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.72.10.32; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu Received: from ponyexpress-ht3.uwyo.edu (extlb.uwyo.edu [172.26.4.4]) by aspensprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p83Jl2mb018880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 13:47:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from SBoese@uwyo.edu) Received: from ponyexpress-m10.uwyo.edu ([fe80::60dd:cb9e:6f71:3d48]) by ponyexpress-ht3.uwyo.edu ([fe80::dc63:d646:8a62:d32f%13]) with mapi id 14.01.0289.001; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 13:47:02 -0600 From: "Steven W. Boese" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B Thread-Index: AQHMamXTa5TWcFKFDEWLZWq3Cia4wpU8BE6y Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:47:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3E8191F276108F4481AB0721BBA9269E05BDE4BB@ponyexpress-m10.uwyo.edu> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [75.220.180.253] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3E8191F276108F4481AB0721BBA9269E05BDE4BBponyexpressm10u_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_3E8191F276108F4481AB0721BBA9269E05BDE4BBponyexpressm10u_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim, I agree with Ed that 20.5" MAP at WOT is low. At 9000' DA I see 23" MAP he= re in Laramie, WY on the ground. At MAP's above the staging threshold, my EC2's fire the primary and seconda= ry injectors of each rotor simultaneously and always for the same amount of= time. For me, it works best to use Mode 3 to adjust for best mixture just= below the staging threshold MAP. This can be thought of an adjustment for= the primary injector size since those are normally the only injectors in u= se below the staging MAP threshold. Just above the staging threshold MAP and with a default Mode 6 setting, bot= h the primary and secondary injectors will be firing but for half the time = that the primary injector was originally firing just below the staging thre= shold MAP. Above the staging threshold MAP, Mode 6 can be used to increase= or decrease the time that the primary and secondary injectors fire instead= of just dividing the original primary injector time by 2. Again, remember= that the primary and secondary injectors always fire for the same amount o= f time. Mode 6 thus enables the use of different sized primary and seconda= ry injectors. After adjusting mode 3 just below the staging threshold MAP, I adjust the m= ixture just above the staging MAP using Mode 6. Due to the effects of inje= ctor lag time, this adjustment is needed even if the primary and secondary = injectors are the same size. Then I adjust the idle with Mode 2. I have not noticed that Mode 2 adjustments require readjusting Modes 3 or 6= . This is what I have observed for my EC2's on a 2 rotor 13B at DA's always o= ver 6000'. While not in any way discouraging you from purchasing Tracy's logging equip= ment, it is possible to observe and log the controller parameters using a P= C or IPAQ. The details and software can be obtained from the following web= site: www.rotarycopilot.com Steve Boese RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 12:17 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B Hi Tim, No experience with trying to tune a rotary at 6700 + feet density altitude.= But, 20.5 " Hg MP seems a bit low at WOT - as I can get 22" while flying = at that altitude, but then perhaps not that far off given your operating lo= cation. First, I would double check the cold start wiring - it really sounds like= you could have it wire backwards - the reason I say that is that when I ac= cidently turn mine on when the engine is at idle the engine immediately sta= rts to bog and run rough. By fact that when you turn your cold start switc= h "ON" it runs smooth strong indicates to me that its acting in reverse. S= o I would check the wiring of the cold start and the injector switches. Regarding your idle. I could be wrong, but my understanding is indeed MODE= 3 adjusts the overall flow to all injectors (may be different on the 3 ro= tor), a value of 128 is what I use/see on my two rotor. It is the only mod= e that permits adjusting the primary injector flow. Mode 6 permits adjusti= ng the secondary flow separately. It could be that you have the overall MODE 3 adjustment a bit too rich at = 168. The fact that you have to lean it considerably also indicates that. = The fact that the engine gets rough if you try to add more fuel could also = indicate too much fuel - excessive fuel getting into you muffler/exhaust co= uld lead to back firing. On the other hand your O2 sensor at one bar (presumably from the lean end) = would seem to indicate too lean. Is if possible that your O2 sensor is jus= t in one of the headers for one of the rotors and while that rotor might be= lean - the other rotors could be running rich? Or do you have it located = where more than one rotor's exhaust hits it? Does the O2 sensor indicator = ever show more than one bar???? I would suggest adjusting the MODE 3 at idle until you get a nice solid i= dle (try 128 or just keep decreasing until the idle smooths out). Then I w= ould go to Mode 6 (on the two rotor, I assume it=92s the same on the 3 roto= r) which is the secondary injector differential adjustment. Then I would i= ncrease that value until you get the high end response you are looking for.= I think you may have it a bit too rich to get a good idle. This based on= 2 rotor viewpoint. Good luck Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: coastiefamily4 Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Tuning 20B I have just finished setting MODE 3. I am tuning it at 6700ft here in Colo= rado Springs and I could only get 20.5 MP running at 6000 RPMs. It is runni= ng smooth, but I think it could be smoother. I will finish it with MODE 1.= I had to set the Injector flow rate at 163. Just finished trying to adjusted the idle setting in MODE 2 and I am still = having a difficult time getting the engine to smooth out at idle. While at= 1800 rpms with cold start off, fuel pressure at 38psi I have to really le= an it out to get it to run smoothly, it is at a setting that is too lean a= nd the engine tries to quit. The O2 reading in just one bar on the scale. T= hen when I try to increase the mixture she get really really rough and occa= sionally will backfire. Then when I switch back to MODE 0 and place the cold start switch on she be= gins to purr nicely and she is very smoothly. I am a little stumped, I know when the cold start is turned on it doubles t= he fuel, but at idle with only the primaries firing if the cold start is tu= rned on will it fire both the primary and secondaries or double the flow on= just the primaries and not fire the secondaries? If I new the answer to t= his it would help diagnose the issue. I am also battling oil leaks. I have a few of the oil pan bolts leaking, I= am going to have to pull then out and fill clean the oil out and then plac= e them back in with pro seal. I tried with grey gasket maker, with no joy.= I think i might have also have a leak coming from one of the bolts on the= mounting plate of the RD1C. I am going to have to look into this leak a l= ittle farther. Never ending oil leaks. I can handle to leaks, at least I know where they are. Any suggestions with the idle tuning. I think I might have to purchase the Data Logger from Tracy in order to se= e all the values. Luckily, I already wire for it, I just have to hook it up= . Tim --_000_3E8191F276108F4481AB0721BBA9269E05BDE4BBponyexpressm10u_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tim,

 

I agree with Ed that 20.5" MAP at WOT is low. = ; At 9000' DA I see 23" MAP here in Laramie, WY on the ground.<= /p>

 

At MAP's above the staging threshold, my EC2's fire the= primary and secondary injectors of each rotor simultaneously and always fo= r the same amount of time.  For me, it works best to use Mode 3 to adj= ust for best mixture just below the staging threshold MAP.  This can be thought of an adjustment for the primary = injector size since those are normally the only injectors in use below the = staging MAP threshold.  

 

Just above the staging threshold MAP and with a default= Mode 6 setting, both the primary and secondary injectors will be firing bu= t for half the time that the primary injector was originally firing ju= st below the staging threshold MAP.  Above the staging threshold MAP, Mode 6 can be used to increase or decrease=  the time that the primary and secondary injectors fire inst= ead of just dividing the original primary injector time by 2.  Again, = remember that the primary and secondary injectors always fire for the same amount of time.  Mode 6 thus enables the = use of different sized primary and secondary injectors. 

 

After adjusting mode 3 just below the staging threshold= MAP, I adjust the mixture just above the staging MAP using Mode 6.  D= ue to the effects of injector lag time, this adjustment is needed even if t= he primary and secondary injectors are the same size.

 

Then I adjust the idle with Mode 2.

 

I have not noticed that Mode 2 adjustments require read= justing Modes 3 or 6.

 

This is what I have observed for my EC2's on a 2 rotor = 13B at DA's always over 6000'.

 

While not in any way discouraging you from purchasing T= racy's logging equipment, it is possible to observe and log the controller = parameters using a PC or IPAQ.  The details and software can be obtain= ed from the following web site:

 

www.rotarycopi= lot.com

 

Steve = Boese

RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2      
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 12:17 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tuning 20B

Hi Tim,
 
No experience with trying to tune a rotary at 670= 0 + feet density altitude. But,  20.5 " Hg MP seems a bi= t low at WOT - as I can get 22" while flying at that altitude, but the= n perhaps not that far off given your operating location. 
 
First, I  would  double check the cold = start wiring - it really sounds like you could have it wire backwards - the= reason I say that is that when I accidently turn mine on when the engine i= s at idle the engine immediately starts to bog and run rough.  By fact that when you turn your cold start switch &qu= ot;ON" it runs smooth strong indicates to me that its acting in revers= e.  So I would check the wiring of the cold start and the injector swi= tches.
 
Regarding your idle.  I could be wrong, but = my understanding is indeed MODE 3  adjusts the overall flow to all inj= ectors (may be different on the 3 rotor), a value of 128 is what I use/see = on my two rotor.  It is the only mode that permits adjusting the primary injector flow.  Mode 6 permits adjusting the se= condary flow separately.
 
 It could be that you have the overall MODE = 3 adjustment a bit too rich at 168.  The fact that you have to lean it= considerably also indicates that.  The fact that the engine gets roug= h if you try to add more fuel could also indicate too much fuel - excessive fuel getting into you muffler/exhaust could lead= to back firing. 
 
On the other hand your O2 sensor at one bar (pres= umably from the lean end) would seem to indicate too lean.  Is if poss= ible that your O2 sensor is just in one of the headers for one of the rotor= s and while that rotor might be lean - the other rotors could be running rich?  Or do you have it located wh= ere more than one rotor's exhaust hits it?  Does the O2 sensor indicat= or ever show more than one bar????
 
  I would suggest adjusting the MODE 3 at id= le until you get a nice solid idle (try 128 or just keep decreasing until t= he idle smooths out).  Then I would go to Mode 6 (on the two rotor, I&= nbsp;assume it=92s the same on the 3 rotor) which is the secondary injector differential adjustment.  Then I would increas= e that value until you get the high end response you are looking for. = I think you may have it a bit too rich to get a good idle.  This base= d on 2 rotor viewpoint.
 
Good luck
 
Ed
 
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.anderson= ee.com
http://www.eicomma= nder.com

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Tuning 20B

I have just finished setting MODE 3.  I am tuning it at 6700ft here in= Colorado Springs and I could only get 20.5 MP running at 6000 RPMs. It is = running smooth, but I think it could be smoother.  I will finish it wi= th MODE 1.  I had to set the Injector flow rate at 163.

Just finished trying to adjusted the idle setting in MODE 2 and I am still = having a difficult time getting the engine to smooth out at idle.  Whi= le at 1800 rpms with cold start off, fuel pressure at 38psi  I have to= really lean it out to get it to run smoothly, it is at a setting that  is too lean and the engine tries to quit. Th= e O2 reading in just one bar on the scale. Then when I try to increase the = mixture she get really really rough and occasionally will backfire. 

Then when I switch back to MODE 0 and place the cold start switch on she be= gins to purr nicely and she is very smoothly.   

I am a little stumped, I know when the cold start is turned on it doubles t= he fuel, but at idle with only the primaries firing if the cold start is tu= rned on will it fire both the primary and secondaries or double the flow on= just the primaries and not fire the secondaries?  If I new the answer to this it would help diagnose = the issue. 

I am also battling oil leaks.  I have a few of the oil pan bolts leaki= ng, I am going to have to pull then out and fill clean the oil out and then= place them back in with pro seal.  I tried with grey gasket maker, wi= th no joy.  I think i might have also have a leak coming from one of the bolts on the mounting plate of the RD1C.&nbs= p; I am going to have to look into this leak a little farther.  Never = ending oil leaks.

 I can handle to leaks, at least I know where they are.

Any suggestions with the idle tuning.

 I think I might have to purchase the Data Logger from Tracy in order = to see all the values. Luckily, I already wire for it, I just have to hook = it up.


Tim

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