X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.vgs.untd.com ([64.136.55.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5094578 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:05:07 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1313553871; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=f33pj4qjUJ2lqcUVJ9TzFfPKf5n9iXyNV6mDTYsbPUyDNr5bXWGS657LhjcB/WQxV 0itc57fn5VaCMF0/CzOqW9m28dsQH6YiOpFFMb5XTCJ75Cu+yZXsCNiRpmfozUvz7f g6S0mAhiqcO2AZ+PU3hQ92aYMs9ixm0BN0EbkB9I= Received: from Penny (50-39-188-132.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.188.132]) by smtpout05.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABHEYRPXAZ7QBUJ for (sender ); Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2D0855F93A8A46F1B7DD36BE7A72255F@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, for that matter. Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:04:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02C9_01CC5C58.07D2E180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 14134 X-ContentStamp: 36:18:4138041826 X-MAIL-INFO:2471714db56869f19115094dc5095d99d9dc3809d1b9bc11b5d138dcd1ccd1c848b1dd1871d84df84d98b5c95d011cc9f1680db1a9f5598cc59ce855e9798c19a8a119b135ec450849f1c1557d2d2c1d0ca579a558914121f929014985999981393d2cb5edb811 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkM2Ol8wzF1M/p9hwVYvdhxmtFiHhHqPm8g== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.35|smtpout05.vgs.untd.com|smtpout05.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02C9_01CC5C58.07D2E180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm really concerned for some of these fuel designs. The fuel bleed has = nothing to do with vapor lock. Virtually no effect at all.=20 The bleed only helps if you blew your plumbing from tank to pump....and = don't want to fix the mistake. If you messed up your plumbing you DON'T = have a self priming fuel pump. Then the bleed solves the problem. It = lowers the pressure in the fuel rail and allows the pump to move air = into the fuel rails. All fuel pumps are really poor at compressing air. = Impossible to compress air to 35 psi.=20 Let's say you decided to place your fuel pump ABOVE your fuel tanks. In = this case, the pump inlet can't get wet. It's not self priming as a = result. The fuel bleed is your only solution for priming your fuel = pumps.=20 How to prove if I need fuel bleed? Drain all fuel from tank and lines. = Add 1 gallon to tank. Turn fuel selector to "on" and time how long it = takes for fuel to exit rails. If 7 seconds pass without fuel being = pumped, you know you blew your plumbing from tank to pump.=20 What's Vapor lock? When you put a pan of water on the stove, those = bubbles coming from the bottom of pan are O2 coming out of solution. = That's the Vapor. Air leaving the liquid. This always happens at the = lowest pressure point in the system. Almost always at fuel pump inlet = because the pump has to reduce pressure to flow fuel. If you had clear = fuel line at pump inlet, you could slowly pinch the line and watch = bubbles form. It's really cool...and educational.=20 Buy a Hodges fuel vapor tester. Measure vapor point of your fuel. Now = measure pressure of fuel line next to pump inlet. The difference in = those two pressures is your vapor lock safety margin. That's it! That's = the definition of vapor lock.=20 So vapor lock is very simple....except a bunch of things affect those = pressures. Temperature, type of fuel, type of fuel filter.=20 What's the best fuel design to prevent vapor lock? Copy any auto mfg = method. They all use the same method because it's SOOO effective. OEM = fuel designs minimize every REAL risk we have in our aircraft. They use = self cleaning filters that have around 10 or 20 times more surface area = than stupid in line filters. They minimize pressure drop at pump inlet = by using large coarse filters there. Submerged pumps. Every car mfg uses = the same system. Do you know how rare that is? They do it because the = wet design with self cleaning filters eliminates all historical = failures.=20 I recently converted my sys to automotive style. Details at bottom of = page: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index_files/Page467.htm= You can prove you have a safe system long before you ever fly. You can = build a fuel sys way way safer than traditional aircraft types.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:53 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, = for that matter. A logical cure for a common problem. Well done.=20 Lynn E. Hanover BTW, what made me decide to do this was some reading I was doing on = the forums. The chamber in the base that holds the pressurized fuel = also has an 1/8"NPT outlet meant for a fuel pressure gauge. I was = considering using this for the pressure bleed connection. Some of the = hot-rodders were complaining about how the Aeromotive regulators weren't = holding pressure after the fuel pumps were shut down. They traced their = woes to poor machining of the steel ball's seat on the base's post. Their spending time and energy to clean up the machining to make a = perfect seal, so I went out and destroyed some beautiful machine work to = make a terrible seal. Go figure. -----Original Message----- From: Ernest Christley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Aug 14, 2011 6:38 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel System...or any others, = for that matter. On 08/15/2011 01:27 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:=20 I removed the 4 screws, wrapped up the base in some shop rags, = leaving just the top of the post exposed, then used a cut-off wheel in = my Dremel to make a deep scratch in the steel ball's seat on the top of = the post. I put it all back together, tested that the pumps made 60psi, = regulated it back down to 50, then watched the pressure bleed off in = about 5 seconds after I switched the pumps off. Then I went in the = house to recover from the gas fumes. This method doesn't add any weight, connections or extra hose, but = is 100% effective at relieving the fuel line pressure on shutdown. BTW, what made me decide to do this was some reading I was doing on = the forums. The chamber in the base that holds the pressurized fuel = also has an 1/8"NPT outlet meant for a fuel pressure gauge. I was = considering using this for the pressure bleed connection. Some of the = hot-rodders were complaining about how the Aeromotive regulators weren't = holding pressure after the fuel pumps were shut down. They traced their = woes to poor machining of the steel ball's seat on the base's post. Their spending time and energy to clean up the machining to make a = perfect seal, so I went out and destroyed some beautiful machine work to = make a terrible seal. Go figure. ------=_NextPart_000_02C9_01CC5C58.07D2E180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm really concerned for some of these = fuel=20 designs. The fuel bleed has nothing to do with vapor lock. Virtually no = effect=20 at all.
 
The bleed only helps if you blew your = plumbing from=20 tank to pump....and don't want to fix the mistake. If you messed up your = plumbing you DON'T have a self priming fuel pump. Then the bleed = solves the=20 problem. It lowers the pressure in the fuel rail and allows the pump to = move air=20 into the fuel rails. All fuel pumps are really poor at compressing air.=20 Impossible to compress air to 35 psi.
 
Let's say you decided to place = your fuel pump=20 ABOVE your fuel tanks. In this case, the pump inlet can't get wet. It's = not self=20 priming as a result. The fuel bleed is your only solution for priming = your fuel=20 pumps.
 
How to prove if I need fuel bleed? = Drain all fuel=20 from tank and lines. Add 1 gallon to tank. Turn fuel selector to "on" = and time=20 how long it takes for fuel to exit rails. If 7 seconds pass without fuel = being=20 pumped, you know you blew your plumbing from tank to pump.
 
What's Vapor lock? When you put a pan = of water on=20 the stove, those bubbles coming from the bottom of pan are O2 coming out = of=20 solution. That's the Vapor. Air leaving the liquid. This always happens = at the=20 lowest pressure point in the system. Almost always at fuel pump inlet = because=20 the pump has to reduce pressure to flow fuel. If you had clear fuel line = at pump=20 inlet, you could slowly pinch the line and watch bubbles form. It's = really=20 cool...and educational.
 
Buy a Hodges fuel vapor tester. Measure = vapor point=20 of your fuel. Now measure pressure of fuel line next to pump inlet. The=20 difference in those two pressures is your vapor lock safety margin. = That's it!=20 That's the definition of vapor lock.
So vapor lock is very simple....except = a bunch of=20 things affect those pressures. Temperature, type of fuel, type of fuel = filter.=20
 
What's the best fuel design to prevent = vapor lock?=20 Copy any auto mfg method. They all use the same method because it's SOOO = effective. OEM fuel designs minimize every REAL risk we have in our = aircraft.=20 They use self cleaning filters that have around 10 or 20 times more = surface area=20 than stupid in line filters. They minimize pressure drop at pump inlet = by using=20 large coarse filters there. Submerged pumps. Every car mfg uses the same = system.=20 Do you know how rare that is? They do it because the wet design with = self=20 cleaning filters eliminates all historical failures.
I recently converted my sys to = automotive style.=20 Details at bottom of page:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index_files/P= age467.htm
 
You can prove you have a safe system = long before=20 you ever fly. You can build a fuel sys way way safer than traditional = aircraft=20 types.
 
-al wick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 = 6:53=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis = Haverlah=20 Fuel System...or any others, for that matter.

A logical = cure for a common=20 problem. Well done.=20

Lynn E. Hanover
BTW, what=20 made me decide to do this was some reading I was doing on the = forums. =20 The chamber in the base that holds the pressurized fuel also has an = 1/8"NPT=20 outlet meant for a fuel pressure gauge.  I was considering = using this=20 for the pressure bleed connection.  Some of the hot-rodders = were=20 complaining about how the Aeromotive regulators weren't holding = pressure=20 after the fuel pumps were shut down.  They traced their woes to = poor=20 machining of the steel ball's seat on the base's post.

Their = spending=20 time and energy to clean up the machining to make a perfect seal, so = I went=20 out and destroyed some beautiful machine work to make a terrible = seal. =20 Go figure.




-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Ernest Christley = <echristley@att.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Sun,=20 Aug 14, 2011 6:38 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Dennis Haverlah Fuel=20 System...or any others, for that matter.

On = 08/15/2011 01:27=20 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:=20

I removed the 4 screws, wrapped up the = base in=20 some shop rags, leaving just the top of the post exposed, then used = a=20 cut-off wheel in my Dremel to make a deep scratch in the steel = ball's seat=20 on the top of the post.

I put it all back together, tested = that the=20 pumps made 60psi, regulated it back down to 50, then watched the = pressure=20 bleed off in about 5 seconds after I switched the pumps off.  = Then I=20 went in the house to recover from the gas fumes.

This method = doesn't=20 add any weight, connections or extra hose, but is 100% effective at=20 relieving the fuel line pressure on = shutdown.

BTW, what=20 made me decide to do this was some reading I was doing on the = forums. =20 The chamber in the base that holds the pressurized fuel also has an = 1/8"NPT=20 outlet meant for a fuel pressure gauge.  I was considering using = this for=20 the pressure bleed connection.  Some of the hot-rodders were = complaining=20 about how the Aeromotive regulators weren't holding pressure after the = fuel=20 pumps were shut down.  They traced their woes to poor machining = of the=20 steel ball's seat on the base's post.

Their spending time and = energy to=20 clean up the machining to make a perfect seal, so I went out and = destroyed=20 some beautiful machine work to make a terrible seal.  Go=20 figure.

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