X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.vgs.untd.com ([64.136.55.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5050477 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:31:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1310563865; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=OgOAvufPnHtMUf71Y0rJPmDJHDjZgYd1VlXCKC4ELJPE+pCvgurz1uWQL7nL28dri I5kjLBvEzIaFjElfqOPZrMJXV9VgepOo0ZxXt3NbSOQo9IF86QJqCV9fEg386wT/XM oZ6ZML4kLSycAnHwD1e6Tiw9q6x5bjcD6zFiW4eo= Received: from Penny (50-39-184-188.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net [50.39.184.188]) by smtpout03.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABHB5HSVA5XYPBA for (sender ); Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: RD-1B failure Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:30:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014F_01CC4126.6CDFA2E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 X-UNTD-BodySize: 10572 X-ContentStamp: 24:12:3054024644 X-MAIL-INFO: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 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkBOvzNknZ1zfa4wkiPG34mHvsLvKxIQTDg== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.33|smtpout03.vgs.untd.com|smtpout03.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01CC4126.6CDFA2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a lot of history of this type of drive plate failure. It = occurred on the Lou Ross psru with some frequency. I did measurements = and analysis of the Lou Ross, then some experiments to prove cause and = effect. Here's what I learned: The drive plate has tremendous strength in the rotational axis, but very = susceptible to fore/aft movement. All of the cracks are consistent with = fatigue failure fore aft direction. In addition, the Lou Ross had = symptoms which forecast drive plate risk. The width of the spline wear = on the input shaft was a direct measure of how far the shaft moves fore = aft. So if the spline on the drive plate had 1" of contact with the = mating spline, yet you saw spline wear on shaft to be 1.25" wide, that = was proof of 1/4" movement. In addition, this movement rapidly caused = grease to be extruded from the little pilot bearing at the end of the = input shaft. So you'd see grease streaks after only 5 hours of use. = Looks like you don't have these same predictors, but I thought it was = valuable to explain all of the supporting evidence.=20 Fuel combustion causes explosion which sends high energy pulse to drive = train. Since the gears are helical, a portion of that energy is = transferred into fore aft movement of the input shaft. Excessive = clearance at the end of that shaft allows greater inertia of shaft. = Beating on drive plate like a hammer. The input shaft is steel, the psru = housing is aluminum. They don't expand the same amount when heated. As a = result, the Ross psru had excessive clearance during operation. Getting = rid of this excess clearance dramatically improved Ross design. No more = loss of grease on that little pilot bushing. No more wide wear pattern = on the input shaft spline. No more failure risk.=20 I also came up with this wild idea I could have zero clearance at end of = input shaft. I tried it and surprise, it worked. I called it a "cage = cap". See my web site. = http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index_files/Page404.htm= I think you guys are using a pretty good psru. Very likely you have this = same problem.=20 -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R.=20 Computer monitoring improves safety, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: hoursaway1@comcast.net=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 4:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD-1B failure David, I have seen this multiple times in the auto repair business, as = far as a cause, on cars that someone had removed trans & did not = reinstall all the retaining bolts, improper alignment of trans/eng., = guide pin missing, trans bolts loose, damaged when trans installed (pry = bar nicks all over the flywheel caused cracks) found a rag installed = between trans & eng., & also on NEW cars with low miles no previous = repairs performed. I also found three Mazda auto trans flywheels = as Tracy did, with very fine cracks around the lightening holes ( not = the bolt holes ) when we were looking for one to use on our RV6A = rotary. I even asked the salvage yard guy to check for me & he missed = them & shipped me that junk flywheel. David R. Cook RV6A = Rotary, Lansing MI. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: "David Leonard" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 6:27:57 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD-1B failure Left over pieces of flex plate - we being held together by ??? --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01CC4126.6CDFA2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
There's a lot of history of this type = of drive=20 plate failure. It occurred on the Lou Ross psru with some frequency. I = did=20 measurements and analysis of the Lou Ross, then some experiments to = prove cause=20 and effect. Here's what I learned:
 
The drive plate has tremendous strength = in the=20 rotational axis, but very susceptible to fore/aft movement. All of the = cracks=20 are consistent with fatigue failure fore aft direction. In addition, the = Lou=20 Ross had symptoms which forecast drive plate risk. The width of the = spline=20 wear on the input shaft was a direct measure of how far the shaft moves = fore=20 aft. So if the spline on the drive plate had 1" of contact with the = mating=20 spline, yet you saw spline wear on shaft to be 1.25" wide, that was = proof of=20 1/4" movement. In addition, this movement rapidly caused grease to be = extruded=20 from the little pilot bearing at the end of the input shaft. So you'd = see grease=20 streaks after only 5 hours of use. Looks like you don't have these same=20 predictors, but I thought it was valuable to explain all of the = supporting=20 evidence.
 
Fuel combustion causes explosion which = sends high=20 energy pulse to drive train. Since the gears are helical, a portion of = that=20 energy is transferred into fore aft movement of the input shaft. = Excessive=20 clearance at the end of that shaft allows greater inertia of shaft. = Beating on=20 drive plate like a hammer. The input shaft is steel, the psru housing is = aluminum. They don't expand the same amount when heated. As a result, = the Ross=20 psru had excessive clearance during operation. Getting rid of this = excess=20 clearance dramatically improved Ross design. No more loss of grease on = that=20 little pilot bushing. No more wide wear pattern on the input shaft = spline. No=20 more failure risk.
 
I also came up with this wild idea I = could have=20 zero clearance at end of input shaft. I tried it and surprise, it = worked. I=20 called it a "cage cap". See my web site. http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index_files/P= age404.htm
 
I think you guys are using a pretty = good psru. Very=20 likely you have this same problem.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru 3.0R.=20
Computer monitoring improves safety, N9032U 240+ hours from = Portland,=20 Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk = assessment=20 info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 hoursaway1@comcast.net =
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 = 4:17=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: RD-1B=20 failure

David, I have=20 seen this multiple times in the auto repair business, as far as a = cause, =20 on cars that someone had removed trans & did not reinstall all the = retaining bolts, improper alignment of trans/eng., guide pin missing, = trans=20 bolts loose, damaged when trans installed (pry bar nicks all over the = flywheel=20 caused cracks) found a rag installed between trans & eng., & = also on=20 NEW cars with low miles no previous repairs=20 performed.         I also = found three=20 Mazda auto trans flywheels as Tracy did, with very fine cracks around = the=20 lightening holes ( not the bolt holes )  when we were looking for = one to=20 use on our RV6A rotary.  I even asked the salvage yard guy = to check=20 for me & he missed them & shipped me that junk=20 flywheel.         David R. = Cook  RV6A=20 Rotary,  Lansing MI.

From: "David Leonard" <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: = "Rotary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Tuesday, July 12, 2011 6:27:57 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: RD-1B=20 failure

Left over pieces of flex plate - we being held together = by  ???
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 = N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

--
Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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