X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm28.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.155] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5040559 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 10:49:20 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.155; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2011 14:48:44 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.81] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2011 14:48:44 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1018.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jul 2011 14:48:44 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 466553.63670.bm@omp1018.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 40833 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jul 2011 14:48:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1309618124; bh=Kjb9SAuqiHAvO8qRsTo1O0/rGyS7aBoUPPGXk4j/Nn0=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kixDaKyEByd3gGUXjhEiW6G8iijugMVSCq5UX9PSgyrdUkrPThT1qi+W1szu5C+sefx2j8nnuEvVAFyGnpBxyAPA3WOGUJ5fiWf/mO82ZcSsNAB1pE8Frql4R0KZAFcDXQTm3qac0F608HZKbHCgcxzh7lTAICFoOiLy0o9R0Ek= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rSi40Xx5TavLPkhfP/mexB7S8UbJbAm1M5uSd0fiUEpk7xMCJYjcN1yGnBGVrNIigxBLAM2c73e7g4128myKaBzRUULCc4FQQHax0ECI3avTWk4g5dC6tRMIIwqwkP8uUL90vv9nPDWoM7KYfsh6vdePua+JKttXPAbeZ4M9m+8=; X-YMail-OSG: 2uYCmJYVM1lZVBwSepRNgD4z6AhmWgtKVcUB52Sr0rcxkH7 o1C0owb.jDmKY5hiaS1iIuiG_O7CTaGW8Mgn2O8dOWuJfa6s_0fEcOy9OYYp S5R67sVFgpP440ylieRlwRed3L21rDEFEUvfEkWY.WQ8xs8QzsW2MnhuWwkm VFkOpcmCpkJ6A9FE4NPvnh4.ksOKei6hBTtrHYiaiWZs7FuTv29QFN9GIWGo 0DRlVUmojkc0mV0ONx88oKdLNeCuKCiXtgHPK8m6q3OGO14ojjAz1rj80Wsz p0fdD5tVxZIxLcQHbkYCJ_P5bmYbBkADm3_R.UGGSZA09zfaVE.7lWud_RF7 fUqOcis2WkNrr.rRylGM1VgLxhhVs7oGJSPhRf_OzRNaleh5lXlb6JUCsDGt Mrj5URhUHeGSJnwBA5K6YRns- Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:48:44 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: Message-ID: <1309618124.28530.YahooMailNeo@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 07:48:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors? To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1664635376-1309618124=:28530" --0-1664635376-1309618124=:28530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Mark...............I forgot your exact reason for adding the orifice= (CRS) but should=0Ayour injectors get leaky in the future it will prevent = flooding and the resultant hard starting=0Athat was the reason for the RX7 = fix in the first place..........=0A=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Even= tually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A=0AFrom: Mark Steitle =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A= Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2011 9:39 AM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking inj= ectors?=0A=0A=0AKelly,=A0 =0A=0AThis was not done to work around leaky inje= ctors (I have six new injectors) but to ensure that if I ever run a tank dr= y that the pump could re-prime itself. =A0While doing ground testing I disc= overed that if I ran the fuel tank dry the EFI pump could not re-prime itse= lf, resulting in a vapor-lock situation. =A0The only way to get it pressuri= zed again was to crack open the fitting near the fuel rail while running th= e pump and bleed off the air which would get the pump sucking fuel again. = =A0There was at least one incident involving an Eggenfellner a/c that had t= his problem which resulted in a forced landing. =A0They came up with the "b= leeder circuit" as a fix. =A0I borrowed the idea from them. =A0It is discus= sed on their web site. =A0I've tested it and it works like a charm. =A0I do= n't recall the exact size fitting I used. =A0It was an old 2-stroke motorcy= cle jet that I had in my toolbox. =A0Any small jet should work. =A0Bobby Hu= ghes also incorporated this design feature into his RV-10. =A0I recommend it to everyone, or else don't run y= our tanks dry.=0A=0AThe only thing that I can think of that would make this= unnecessary is if this happens in flight your engine will probably continu= e to windmill which should keep the injectors cycling. =A0This could allow = enough air to pass through the system to eventually allow for a re-start. = =A0(This didn't happen with the Eggenfellner installation.) =A0If this happ= ens at low altitude you may not have enough time for the engine to re-start= though. =A0Personally, I feel this is such a simple fix, I didn't see any = reason not to do it. =A0=A0=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 8:52 A= M, Kelly Troyer wrote:=0A=0AErnest,=0A>=A0=A0=A0 Your=A0EF= I fuel pumps have a check valve in them and will hold regulated=A0pressure= =0A>for a long time or until leaky injectors relieve this pressure.........= .Short of replacing=0A>the injectors the=A0fix is to put a pressure relief = orifice from the fuel=A0pressure line=A0to =0A>the=A0fuel return line......= This is the band-aid=A0fix commonly used for hi-milage RX7's =0A>and "Mazda= trix" even sells a kit for this (I made my own for my 88 Rx7).............T= he =0A>orifice needs to be small (I think I used 0.020).............The fue= l pump has enough=0A>excess capacity to make up for the small amount of lea= kage when the engine is=A0=0A>running...........Make the orifice very small= ...........I=A0bought a kit of micro sized bits =0A>from "Harbor Freight Ai= rcraft Supply"........<:)...........Mark Steitle did this for leaky=0A>inje= ctors on his 20B..........Jump in here Mark.........Do you recall what orif= ice size=0A>you used ??..............=A0=A0=A0=A0=0A>=0A>Kelly Troyer=0A>"D= YKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A>"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A>"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2= =0A>"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A>"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo=0A>=0A>= =0A>From: Ernest Christley =0A>To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft =0A>Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 11:23 P= M=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Leaking injectors?=0A>=0A>I was installing a cool= ant overflow bottle today, working right next to the intake manifold.=A0 Ke= pt smelling gas.=A0 Then I noticed a little puddle inside the little depres= sion formed by a modification I just added.=A0 The new fiberglass didn't ha= ve any paint on it, so that is why I could see through it.=A0 There was may= be an ounce of gas floating around in the bottom of the manifold.=0A>=0A>Co= uld I have been running so rich during my test run that=A0 an oz of gas was= left on the manifold walls?=A0 Or could it be that it dripped through a le= aky injector, even though I shut down by switching off the fuel pump in ord= er to relieve line pressure?=0A>=0A>I know some others have had problems wi= th leaky injectors.=A0 Does anyone have an idea for making them not quite s= o leaky?=0A>=0A>--=0A>Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0A>Archive and= UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A>= =0A>=0A> --0-1664635376-1309618124=:28530 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Mark...............I forgot your exact reason for adding the orifice (CRS) but should=
your injectors get l= eaky in the future it will prevent flooding and the resultant hard starting=
that was the reason = for the RX7 fix in the first place..........<= /SPAN>
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Saturday, July 2, 2011 9:39 AM
Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Leaking injectors?

Kelly, 

This was not done to work around leaky injectors (I have six new injec= tors) but to ensure that if I ever run a tank dry that the pump could re-pr= ime itself.  While doing ground testing I discovered that if I ran the= fuel tank dry the EFI pump could not re-prime itself, resulting in a vapor= -lock situation.  The only way to get it pressurized again was to crac= k open the fitting near the fuel rail while running the pump and bleed off = the air which would get the pump sucking fuel again.  There was at lea= st one incident involving an Eggenfellner a/c that had this problem which r= esulted in a forced landing.  They came up with the "bleeder circuit" = as a fix.  I borrowed the idea from them.  It is discussed on the= ir web site.  I've tested it and it works like a charm.  I don't = recall the exact size fitting I used.  It was an old 2-stroke motorcyc= le jet that I had in my toolbox.  Any small jet should work.  Bobby Hughes also incorporated this design feature into his RV-10. &= nbsp;I recommend it to everyone, or else don't run your tanks dry.

The only thing that I can think of that would make this unnecessary is= if this happens in flight your engine will probably continue to win= dmill which should keep the injectors cycling.  This could allow enoug= h air to pass through the system to eventually allow for a re-start.  = (This didn't happen with the Eggenfellner installation.)  If this happ= ens at low altitude you may not have enough time for the engine to re-start= though.  Personally, I feel this is such a simple fix, I didn't see a= ny reason not to do it.   

Mark

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Kelly= Troyer <keltro@att.net><= /SPAN> wrote:
Ernest,
    Your EFI= fuel pumps have a check valve in them and will hold regulated = pressure
for a long time or until leaky injectors relieve this pressure..= ........Short of replacing=
the injectors the fix is to put a pressure relief orifice from the fuel press= ure line  to
the fuel return line......This is the band-aid=  fix commonly used for hi-milage RX7's
and "Mazdatrix" even sells a kit for this (I made my own for my 88 Rx7).............The=
orifice needs to be small (I think I used 0.020)...= ..........The fuel pump has enough
excess capacity to make up for the small amount of leakage when = the engine is 
running...........Make the orifice very small...........I bought a kit of micro si= zed bits
from "Harbor Freight Aircraft Supply"........<:)...........Ma= rk Steitle did this for leaky=
injectors on his 20B..........Jump in here Mark.........Do you r= ecall what orifice size=
you used ??..............    
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_R= D1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/O= il Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.c= om>
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
Sen= t: Friday, July 1, 2011 11:23 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Leaking injectors?

I= was installing a coolant overflow bottle today, working right next to the intake manifold.&= nbsp; Kept smelling gas.  Then I noticed a little puddle inside the li= ttle depression formed by a modification I just added.  The new fiberg= lass didn't have any paint on it, so that is why I could see through it.&nb= sp; There was maybe an ounce of gas floating around in the bottom of the ma= nifold.

Could I have been running so rich during my test run that&nb= sp; an oz of gas was left on the manifold walls?  Or could it be that = it dripped through a leaky injector, even though I shut down by switching o= ff the fuel pump in order to relieve line pressure?

I know some othe= rs have had problems with leaky injectors.  Does anyone have an idea f= or making them not quite so leaky?

--
Homep= age:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub= :  http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html





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