X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from willowsprings.uwyo.edu ([129.72.10.31] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTPS id 5027476 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:45:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=129.72.10.31; envelope-from=SBoese@uwyo.edu Received: from ponyexpress-ht1.uwyo.edu (ponyexpress-ht1.uwyo.edu [10.84.60.208]) by willowsprings.uwyo.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p5LEj3tN028733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:45:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from SBoese@uwyo.edu) Received: from ponyexpress-mb5.uwyo.edu ([fe80::9813:248c:2d68:a28b]) by ponyexpress-ht1 ([10.84.60.208]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:45:06 -0600 From: "Steven W. Boese" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:45:05 -0600 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to stop Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to stop Thread-Index: AcwwESwRFSreVmQYRHqG+NUOBMe5awACzy/Z Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E1AA3B1AF41D8049B1E3FBD5E2256260088E356606ponyexpressmb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_E1AA3B1AF41D8049B1E3FBD5E2256260088E356606ponyexpressmb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian, If you still have the smaller injectors as primaries, you may want to also = force the system to use the larger secondaries when doing the test Ed sugge= sts. However, when the injectors reach the point when they are open full t= ime, this does not cause a large sudden mixture change or engine rougness. = I have installed primary injectors as small as 22 lb on my engine stand an= d cannot induce roughness up to 30 inches MAP. The mixture will go lean wh= en the fuel requirement exceeds the injector flow rate, but the engine stil= l runs smoothly. Increasing MAP further results in the power gradually dro= pping off to the point where the engine goes from running smoothly at reduc= ed power to where it just quits. If you have a tachometer driven by the pr= imary injector signal, the tachometer reading will go unstable and eventual= ly go to zero if the injector goes static (on full time). If you look at the startup sequence page on the website www.rotarycopilot.c= om you can see the signals that can be recov= ered from the CAS, injector, and ignition systems. If you can move the con= nector to the EC2 away from the EC2 box by about 1 inch, you can insert the= adapter that I used to capture those signals and no wiring changes would b= e required. I can send you the adapter and the laptop computer that captur= es the signals along with instructions on how to record the data. I would = not recommend doing this in flight unless the connectors can be secured. S= o if the roughness cannot be induced on the ground, this may not be of much= help. I also had a situation where the external tachometer malfunctioned when con= nected to the primary injector signal, but worked properly when the trailin= g coils were disabled, and worked properly when the trailing coils were ena= bled and no input signal was connected to the tach at all. I also had prob= lems with a homemade microprocessor based instrument that measures RPM, inj= ector pulse width and fuel flow. Replacing the spark plug wires with Magne= cor 10 mm wires cured these problems. The old wires were Bosch high temper= ature silicone wires which visually appeared to be in good condition. This= is just an interesting and frustrating problem that I had and it may have = nothing to do with what you are experiencing. Steve Boese ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to = stop Agree, Brian, something is amiss (no pun intended). One question I have - is your prop 88(Dia) x 74 (pitch) or more likely 74 (= dia) x 88 (pitch)? - conventionally the diameter is mentioned first. CHECK THIS One thing you may want to check. While it doesn't have any bearing on your = rough running it may on your static rpm. Two folks I know have had Catto = props made for the rotary - in both cases the chord of the prop was way too= much and over loaded the engine and surpressed rpm and power. Measure your cord across the broadest point in the blade. The Props which= cause folks problems measure around 8" - whereas my 74 x 88 Performance Pr= op chord measured 5 1/2". Sam Hodges, Rv-7A with Renesis, had worked month= s trying to get his static rpm above 5000 including making several intakes= . When we put my prop on his engine, it immediately got 6000 + static rpm= - it was the prop all along. So measure that chord. The reason for the emphasis on the prop, is that with that set up and a pro= p the size of mine - you should be turning 6000 rpm static (at least). All= of this referenced to sea level air density. Another aspect, what type of air/fuel ratio indications are you getting whi= le the engine is stumbling? Is 18" Hg near your staging point? - there is the possibility that something is happening after you stage - fo= r example if your primary injectors were OK, then the engine would run smoo= thly - until the engine went to all four injectors - then if is there was a= problem with one of you secondary injectors you could get rough running. Then as you suggest, it could be an ignition problem. As you know several = folks have had ignition misfiring problems using the Renesis type pulley ti= ming mechanism - particularly at the higher rpm -apparently alignment is ve= ry critical - I can not recall if you are using the CAS or the Pulley type= . TRY THIS It is either your fuel or your ignition - try to eliminate one or the other= - using an oscilloscope can help in that type of trouble shooting, but if = you don=92t have access or experience in using one - well, need I say more.= I would try to determine if it is fuel related first - because I think th= at could be the easiest to work with. Here is what you can try - if you turn off power to your secondary injector= s, then when you go through the staging point only the primary injectors wi= ll be firing. Two 450 cc/min or larger primary injectors can easily get an= engine up to 6000 rpm (provided you are not over propped). So if you engi= ne runs smoothly all the way up past 5300 rpm on primary injectors alone, t= hen I would strongly suspect something in the secondary circuitry (injecto= rs, intermittent connection, etc). So take the secondary injectors out of = play by turning off their power. While I have had no problem staying airbo= rne on two injectors, I don't suggest you try flying with two - just do thi= s test on the ground. IF running on just the primary you get to 5300 rpm and the engine starts to= miss or run rough, then I think we can eliminate the secondary injector ci= rcuit as the problem and perhaps concentrate on the ignition. That's all I can think of to suggest at the moment Good luck Brian Ed From: bktrub@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:19 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] This has got to stop I'm going to ground my airplane until I get to the bottom of this. I can tu= ne it on the ground and it will run just fine all the way from idle to full= throttle. I get about 5300 rpm at full throttle at 29 in hg. MP. I have 12= hours in the air so far but can't get past this issue. Other than this, th= e plane is an absolute joy. When I get off the ground, when I go through around 5400 RPM, I start to g= et stumbling and engine roughness. At this RPM I am about 18 inches MP. Jus= t below this point, I am making about 50% power and the engine will run smo= othly. I went to another airport and had a lot of roughness on takeoff, but I am u= sed to it and so continued on my way to my home airport. When I got back I = found out that someone at the other airport wanted to report me to FSDO bec= ause he thought my engine was going to blow up, but he didn't get my tail n= umber. So, I thought I had it sorted out before I flew today, but it's back to the= drawing board. I've tried both leaning and enriching the mixture at all th= rottle settings, but to no avail. At and above 5400 rpm I start getting all= sorts of roughness so I think that it has to be an ignition issue. My inje= ctor wiring is separated from my coil wiring, but could I be getting induct= ance between the different coil wiring? I have a 93 13 BREW normally aspirated, 2.85 RWS redrive, EM2, EC2, 88x 74 = CAtto Prop. This is getting to be really frustrating. It's got to be someth= ing simple that I'm overlooking. I don't know anyone with an ocilliscope, a= nd have never used one. Brian Trubee --_000_E1AA3B1AF41D8049B1E3FBD5E2256260088E356606ponyexpressmb_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brian,
 
If you still have the smaller injecto= rs as primaries, you may want to also force the system to use the larger se= condaries when doing the test Ed suggests.  However, when the injector= s reach the point when they are open full time, this does not cause a large sudden mixture change or engine rougness= .  I have installed primary injectors as small as 22 lb on my engine s= tand and cannot induce roughness up to 30 inches MAP.  The mixtur= e will go lean when the fuel requirement exceeds the injector flow rate, but the engine still runs smoothly.  Increasi= ng MAP further results in the power gradually dropping off to the poin= t where the engine goes from running smoothly at reduced power to= where it just quits.  If you have a tachometer driven by the primary injector signal, the tachometer reading will go unstable an= d eventually go to zero if the injector goes static (on full time).<= /div>
 
If you look at the startup sequence page on the website www.rotarycopilot.com you can see the signals that can be recovere= d from the CAS, injector, and ignition systems.  If you can move the c= onnector to the EC2 away from the EC2 box by about 1 inch, you can insert t= he adapter that I used to capture those signals and no wiring changes would be required.  I can send you the ada= pter and the laptop computer that captures the signals along with instructi= ons on how to record the data.  I would not recommend doing this in fl= ight unless the connectors can be secured.  So if the roughness cannot be induced on the ground, this may not be of much = help.
 
I also had a situation where the exte= rnal tachometer malfunctioned when connected to the primary injector signal= , but worked properly when the trailing coils were disabled, and worked pro= perly when the trailing coils were enabled and no input signal was connected to the tach at all.  I also had problem= s with a homemade microprocessor based instrument that measures RPM, inject= or pulse width and fuel flow.  Replacing the spark plug wires with Mag= necor 10 mm wires cured these problems.  The old wires were Bosch high temperature silicone wires which visually appear= ed to be in good condition.  This is just an interesting and frustrati= ng problem that I had and it may have nothing to do with what you are exper= iencing.
 
Steve Boese   &= nbsp; 
=  
From: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson [eand= erson@carolina.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:44 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has = got to stop

Agree, Brian, something is amiss (no pun intended= ).
 
One question I have - is your prop 88(Dia) x 74 (= pitch) or more likely 74 (dia) x 88 (pitch)? - conventionally the diameter = is mentioned first. 
 
CHECK THIS
 
One thing you may want to check. While it do= esn't have any bearing on your rough running it may on your static rpm.&nbs= p;  Two folks I know have had Catto props made for the rotary - in bot= h cases the chord of the prop was way too much and over loaded the engine and surpressed rpm and power.
 
 Measure your cord across the broade= st point in the blade.  The Props which cause folks problems = measure around 8" - whereas my 74 x 88 Performance Prop chord measured= 5 1/2".  Sam Hodges, Rv-7A with Renesis, had worked months trying to get his static  rpm above 5000 including making = ;several intakes.  When we put my prop on his engine, it  im= mediately got 6000 + static rpm - it was the prop all along.  So measure that chord.
 
The reason for the emphasis on the prop, is that = with that set up and a prop the size of mine - you should be turning 6000 r= pm static (at least).  All of this referenced to sea level air density= .
 
 
Another aspect, what type of air/fuel ratio indic= ations are you getting while the engine is stumbling?  Is 18" Hg = near your staging point?
 
- there is the possibility that something is happ= ening after you stage - for example if your primary injectors were OK, then= the engine would run smoothly - until the engine went to all four injector= s - then if is there was a problem with one of you secondary injectors you could get rough running. 
 
Then as you suggest, it could be an ignition prob= lem.  As you know several folks have had ignition misfiring problems using the Re= nesis type pulley timing mechanism - particularly at the higher rpm -appare= ntly alignment is very critical  - I can not recall if you are using t= he CAS or the Pulley type.
 
TRY THIS
It is either your fuel or your ignition - try to = eliminate one or the other - using an oscilloscope can help in that type of= trouble shooting, but if you don=92t have access or experience in using on= e - well, need I say more.  I would try to determine if it is fuel related first - because I think that could = be the easiest to work with.
 
Here is what you can try - if yo= u turn off power to your secondary injectors, then when you go through the = staging point only the primary injectors will be firing.  Two 450 cc/m= in or larger primary injectors can easily get an engine up to 6000 rpm (provided you are not over propped).  So= if you engine runs smoothly all the way up past 5300 rpm on primary inject= ors alone, then I would strongly suspect something in the secondary circuit= ry  (injectors, intermittent connection, etc).  So take the secondary injectors out of play by turning off the= ir power.  While I have had no problem staying airborne on two injecto= rs, I don't suggest you try flying with two - just do this test on the grou= nd. 
 
IF running on just the primary you get to 5300 rp= m and the engine starts to miss or run rough, then I think we can eliminate= the secondary injector circuit as the problem and perhaps concentrate on t= he ignition.
 
That's all I can think of to suggest at the momen= t
 
Good luck Brian
 
Ed

Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:19 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] This has got to stop


I'm going to ground my airplane until I get to the bottom of this. I c= an tune it on the ground and it will run just fine all the way from idle to= full throttle. I get about 5300 rpm at full throttle at 29 in hg. MP. I ha= ve 12 hours in the air so far but can't get past this issue. Other than this, the plane is an absolute joy. =
 
When  I get off the ground, when I go through around 5400 RPM, I = start to get stumbling and engine roughness. At this RPM I am about 18 inch= es MP. Just below this point, I am making about 50% power and the engine wi= ll run smoothly.
 
I went to another airport and had a lot of roughness on takeoff, but I= am used to it and so continued on my way to my home airport. When I got ba= ck I found out that someone at the other airport wanted to report me to FSD= O because he thought my engine was going to blow up, but he didn't get my tail number.
 
So, I thought I had it sorted out before I flew today, but it's back t= o the drawing board. I've tried both leaning and enriching the mixture at a= ll throttle settings, but to no avail. At and above 5400 rpm I start gettin= g all sorts of roughness so I think that it has to be an ignition issue. My injector wiring is separated from = my coil wiring, but could I be getting inductance between the different coi= l wiring?
 
I have a 93 13 BREW normally aspirated, 2.85 RWS redrive, EM2, EC2, 88= x 74 CAtto Prop. This is getting to be really frustrating. It's got to be s= omething simple that I'm overlooking. I don't know anyone with an ocillisco= pe, and have never used one.
 
Brian Trubee

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