X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5027292 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:44:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=aeMH4JcVOnVr0LmJAzqEvfnmJyuaZufWdlng4HTRGCk= c=1 sm=0 a=TLlw9JMjXUgA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=4CaTcMzGnah_YL-PG80A:9 a=j1eD6Hhz9GJeiJ9EW5wA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=kYTOp-gTleUDiWaF:21 a=BrrOhsu0_4cV0NwO:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=XAbA0S6eejRf7O1eQ8YA:9 a=WtxeNclWRxv_wwpZFe0A:7 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:63204] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 51/6D-03893-D12900E4; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:44:13 +0000 Message-ID: <81EAF4C846DD48A59ADBD550833A13F6@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Check This Try This was : [FlyRotary] This has got to stop Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:44:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01CC2FEF.61702350" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CC2FEF.61702350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree, Brian, something is amiss (no pun intended). One question I have - is your prop 88(Dia) x 74 (pitch) or more likely = 74 (dia) x 88 (pitch)? - conventionally the diameter is mentioned first. = CHECK THIS One thing you may want to check. While it doesn't have any bearing on = your rough running it may on your static rpm. Two folks I know have = had Catto props made for the rotary - in both cases the chord of the = prop was way too much and over loaded the engine and surpressed rpm and = power. Measure your cord across the broadest point in the blade. The Props = which cause folks problems measure around 8" - whereas my 74 x 88 = Performance Prop chord measured 5 1/2". Sam Hodges, Rv-7A with Renesis, = had worked months trying to get his static rpm above 5000 including = making several intakes. When we put my prop on his engine, it = immediately got 6000 + static rpm - it was the prop all along. So = measure that chord. The reason for the emphasis on the prop, is that with that set up and a = prop the size of mine - you should be turning 6000 rpm static (at = least). All of this referenced to sea level air density. Another aspect, what type of air/fuel ratio indications are you getting = while the engine is stumbling? Is 18" Hg near your staging point? - there is the possibility that something is happening after you stage - = for example if your primary injectors were OK, then the engine would run = smoothly - until the engine went to all four injectors - then if is = there was a problem with one of you secondary injectors you could get = rough running.=20 Then as you suggest, it could be an ignition problem. As you know = several folks have had ignition misfiring problems using the Renesis = type pulley timing mechanism - particularly at the higher rpm = -apparently alignment is very critical - I can not recall if you are = using the CAS or the Pulley type. TRY THIS It is either your fuel or your ignition - try to eliminate one or the = other - using an oscilloscope can help in that type of trouble shooting, = but if you don't have access or experience in using one - well, need I = say more. I would try to determine if it is fuel related first - = because I think that could be the easiest to work with. Here is what you can try - if you turn off power to your secondary = injectors, then when you go through the staging point only the primary = injectors will be firing. Two 450 cc/min or larger primary injectors = can easily get an engine up to 6000 rpm (provided you are not over = propped). So if you engine runs smoothly all the way up past 5300 rpm = on primary injectors alone, then I would strongly suspect something in = the secondary circuitry (injectors, intermittent connection, etc). So = take the secondary injectors out of play by turning off their power. = While I have had no problem staying airborne on two injectors, I don't = suggest you try flying with two - just do this test on the ground. =20 IF running on just the primary you get to 5300 rpm and the engine starts = to miss or run rough, then I think we can eliminate the secondary = injector circuit as the problem and perhaps concentrate on the ignition. That's all I can think of to suggest at the moment Good luck Brian Ed From: bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:19 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] This has got to stop I'm going to ground my airplane until I get to the bottom of this. I can = tune it on the ground and it will run just fine all the way from idle to = full throttle. I get about 5300 rpm at full throttle at 29 in hg. MP. I = have 12 hours in the air so far but can't get past this issue. Other = than this, the plane is an absolute joy.=20 When I get off the ground, when I go through around 5400 RPM, I start = to get stumbling and engine roughness. At this RPM I am about 18 inches = MP. Just below this point, I am making about 50% power and the engine = will run smoothly.=20 I went to another airport and had a lot of roughness on takeoff, but I = am used to it and so continued on my way to my home airport. When I got = back I found out that someone at the other airport wanted to report me = to FSDO because he thought my engine was going to blow up, but he didn't = get my tail number.=20 So, I thought I had it sorted out before I flew today, but it's back to = the drawing board. I've tried both leaning and enriching the mixture at = all throttle settings, but to no avail. At and above 5400 rpm I start = getting all sorts of roughness so I think that it has to be an ignition = issue. My injector wiring is separated from my coil wiring, but could I = be getting inductance between the different coil wiring? I have a 93 13 BREW normally aspirated, 2.85 RWS redrive, EM2, EC2, 88x = 74 CAtto Prop. This is getting to be really frustrating. It's got to be = something simple that I'm overlooking. I don't know anyone with an = ocilliscope, and have never used one.=20 Brian Trubee ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01CC2FEF.61702350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree, Brian, something is amiss (no pun=20 intended).
 
One question I have - is your prop 88(Dia) x 74 = (pitch) or=20 more likely 74 (dia) x 88 (pitch)? - conventionally the diameter is = mentioned=20 first. 
 
CHECK THIS
 
One thing you may want to check. While it = doesn't=20 have any bearing on your rough running it may on your static rpm. =20  Two folks I know have had Catto props made for the rotary - in = both cases=20 the chord of the prop was way too much and over loaded the engine and = surpressed=20 rpm and power.
 
 Measure your cord across the = broadest point=20 in the blade.  The Props which cause folks problems = measure around=20 8" - whereas my 74 x 88 Performance Prop chord measured 5 1/2".  = Sam=20 Hodges, Rv-7A with Renesis, had worked months trying to get his = static=20  rpm above 5000 including making several intakes.  When = we put my=20 prop on his engine, it  immediately got 6000 + static rpm - = it=20 was the prop all along.  So measure that = chord.
 
The reason for the emphasis on the prop, is that = with that=20 set up and a prop the size of mine - you should be turning 6000 rpm = static (at=20 least).  All of this referenced to sea level air = density.
 
 
Another aspect, what type of air/fuel ratio = indications=20 are you getting while the engine is stumbling?  Is 18" Hg near your = staging=20 point?
 
- there is the possibility that something is = happening=20 after you stage - for example if your primary injectors were OK, then = the engine=20 would run smoothly - until the engine went to all four injectors - then = if is=20 there was a problem with one of you secondary injectors you could get = rough=20 running. 
 
Then as you suggest, it could be an ignition=20 problem.  As you know several folks have had = ignition=20 misfiring problems using the Renesis type pulley timing mechanism - = particularly=20 at the higher rpm -apparently alignment is very critical  - I can = not=20 recall if you are using the CAS or the Pulley type.
 
TRY THIS
It is either your fuel or your ignition - try to = eliminate=20 one or the other - using an oscilloscope can help in that type of = trouble=20 shooting, but if you don=92t have access or experience in using one - = well, need I=20 say more.  I would try to determine if it is fuel related first - = because I=20 think that could be the easiest to work with.
 
Here is what you can try - if = you turn=20 off power to your secondary injectors, then when you go through the = staging=20 point only the primary injectors will be firing.  Two 450 cc/min or = larger=20 primary injectors can easily get an engine up to 6000 rpm (provided you = are not=20 over propped).  So if you engine runs smoothly all the way up past = 5300 rpm=20 on primary injectors alone, then I would strongly suspect something in = the=20 secondary circuitry  (injectors, intermittent connection, = etc).  So=20 take the secondary injectors out of play by turning off their = power.  While=20 I have had no problem staying airborne on two injectors, I don't suggest = you try=20 flying with two - just do this test on the ground. 
 
IF running on just the primary you get to 5300 = rpm and the=20 engine starts to miss or run rough, then I think we can eliminate the = secondary=20 injector circuit as the problem and perhaps concentrate on the=20 ignition.
 
That's all I can think of to suggest at the=20 moment
 
Good luck Brian
 
Ed

From: bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:19 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] This has got to stop


I'm going to ground my airplane until I get to the bottom of this. = I can=20 tune it on the ground and it will run just fine all the way from idle to = full=20 throttle. I get about 5300 rpm at full throttle at 29 in hg. MP. I have = 12 hours=20 in the air so far but can't get past this issue. Other than this, the = plane is=20 an absolute joy.
 
When  I get off the ground, when I go through around 5400 RPM, = I start=20 to get stumbling and engine roughness. At this RPM I am about 18 inches = MP. Just=20 below this point, I am making about 50% power and the engine will run = smoothly.=20
 
I went to another airport and had a lot of roughness on takeoff, = but I am=20 used to it and so continued on my way to my home airport. When I got = back I=20 found out that someone at the other airport wanted to report me to FSDO = because=20 he thought my engine was going to blow up, but he didn't get my tail = number.=20
 
So, I thought I had it sorted out before I flew today, but it's = back to the=20 drawing board. I've tried both leaning and enriching the mixture at all = throttle=20 settings, but to no avail. At and above 5400 rpm I start getting all = sorts of=20 roughness so I think that it has to be an ignition issue. My injector = wiring is=20 separated from my coil wiring, but could I be getting inductance between = the=20 different coil wiring?
 
I have a 93 13 BREW normally aspirated, 2.85 RWS redrive, EM2, EC2, = 88x 74=20 CAtto Prop. This is getting to be really frustrating. It's got to be = something=20 simple that I'm overlooking. I don't know anyone with an ocilliscope, = and have=20 never used one.
 
Brian Trubee

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