X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with ESMTP id 5013033 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Jun 2011 22:43:52 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=SOlsIBN44tkg4MqIq+y2aLZdhoA3kHpmiRsLue6rfnM= c=1 sm=0 a=FpPB_LdeqgkA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=glYVDZ00AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=yEagcn5-j2DaTQHhvGwA:9 a=lEWuaGsKS8pvLPIHu9wA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=ksi2j4czNHD3mBdX:21 a=uhQghH4Ob8DKHZWA:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=OrL1lrY-zcSjsfVCdbQA:9 a=IjHNWabsG73M_sbfMmIA:7 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=e9UjBh7zzsWKq0EO:21 a=kiAupn8c4TjUw38N:21 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:51612] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 90/7A-15242-3C1EEED4; Wed, 08 Jun 2011 02:43:15 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: My latest full power run Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 22:42:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01CC2564.39B592E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01CC2564.39B592E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I recall -way back when - on one of Tracy Crooks first flights to = Oshkosh and taking off for the trip back, his rotary oil pressure = dropped to 27 psi - that was it max pressure at any rpm. =20 Well, what to do - back in those days there were not nearly the number = of "rotary friendly" places to stop for a quick engine tear down as = there is now. Tracy elected to continue the flight at reduce rpm and = flew the rest of the flight back home to Florida - without any damage to = the engine. The culprit as most will have guessed, was the infamous oil "O" ring = that sealed the oil path between the front iron and the aluminum front = housing. Within a few weeks of Tracy reporting on his incident and the = cause - I found myself looking at a 27 psi oil pressure reading as well. = Knowing that Tracy had make it over a 1000 miles, I was certain I could = make it back to my airport (still flying off my 40 hours at the time) = from my restricted test area. The only down side I have heard about running with the higher pressure = oil is more wear on the oil pump - just heard, no experience myself as I = have always flow with the stock oil pump assembly - and yes, I have = removed the oil pellet and have the jets in the eshaft. My typical = flight oil pressure is 70psi although over the past years it has slowly = falling to around 65 psi. =20 I would consider replacing it, but waiting to see if the 16X is coming = out in the next year or two - then I'll just replace the entire engine. Ed From: lehanover@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My latest full power run The stock early relief valves were all set at 71.9 pounds. Those can be = disassembled and a few washers installed under the spring to bring top = pressure up to whatever you want.=20 Racers like 75 to 100 pounds, the stock twin turbo FD is set at 115 = pounds.=20 The .Weber jet mods to the oil spray nozzles in the crank are there to = preclude a piece of broken spring from finding its way into the oil = pump. Also to control how much oil gets sprayed into the rotors for = cooling. Racing Beat says a 200 main jet is about right. I use a 180 air = corrector because I had a lot of them and it fits better. I also use 100 = Pounds from a dry sump pump and do not want too much oil going into the = rotors to limit foaming. If you do this mod to a street engine, the = idiot light will blink all of the time at idle. Too big a leak in the = oiling system. Once you have a few revs on hand the pressure comes up a = bit and the light goes out. The rotors foam the oil badly and that = reduces oil pressure and heat transfer (from air in the oil) . So if you = have this mod your idle pressure will be below normal, and you peak = pressure will be a few pounds light from oil temps and (bigger holes). =20 Once at top RPM, the only limit on pressure should be the relief valve = cracking pressure. You can check that with shop air pressure before = assembly. You can mod the early valves to get more pressure. You can use = a heavier weight oil. Racing oils have more anti scuff compounds and = more anti foaming additives. You can limit oil temps. You can buy an 85 = or 110 pound valve from Racing Beat, or make one yourself. Reinstall the = valve with the drain horizontal to help reduce foaming. That 68 pounds = at full throttle and full temps is plenty, bearing wise, just not as = reassuring as 85 pounds. Be sure that there is a restrictor in the = pressure line to the turbo. The next time the pan is off, just mod the = valve up to 80 PSI and settle for 75 pounds at cruise. It won't make any = difference, but You will feel better, and we will feel better. =20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 PS. There is a 3 rotor in a second gen body in my shop. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, Jun 7, 2011 6:52 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My latest full power run I thought you were running a Renisis.=20 Sent from my iPhone 4 On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:40 PM, "Rino" wrote: I have the mods too and I get 90 psi at that rpm. Rino ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My latest full power run Keep in mind he has the thermal pellet mod AND the carb jets mod = done to the e-shaft.. That could be a factor in oil pressure, especially = when warm.=20 I like the other numbers though.. Dave On 6/6/2011 7:48 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20 Chris, Curious if your oil pressure has been calibrated..............I = personally would like to see slightly more pressure at 6000+ rpm............Lynn jump in here = and tell me if I am off base about this............... Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, June 6, 2011 7:34:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] My latest full power run See attached photo. I actually slid just over 32 map at bit over = 6200 rpm for a few seconds too with my IVO at the flattest pitch on this = ground static run. Just FYI.=20 Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01CC2564.39B592E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As I recall -way back when - on one of Tracy = Crooks first=20 flights to Oshkosh and taking off for the trip back, his rotary oil = pressure=20 dropped to 27 psi - that was it max pressure at any rpm.  =
 
Well, what to do - back in those days there were = not=20 nearly the number of "rotary friendly" places to stop for a quick engine = tear=20 down as there is now.  Tracy elected to continue the flight at = reduce rpm=20 and flew the rest of the flight back home to Florida - without any = damage to the=20 engine.
 
The culprit as most will have guessed, was the = infamous=20 oil "O" ring that sealed the oil path between the front iron and the = aluminum=20 front housing.  Within a few weeks of Tracy reporting on his = incident and=20 the cause - I found myself looking at a 27 psi oil pressure reading as=20 well.  Knowing that Tracy had make it over a 1000 miles, I was = certain I=20 could make it back to my airport (still flying off my 40 hours at the = time) from=20 my restricted test area.
 
The only down side I have heard = about running with=20  the higher pressure oil is more wear on the oil pump - just heard, = no=20 experience myself as I have always flow with the stock oil pump assembly = - and=20 yes, I have removed the oil pellet and have the jets in the = eshaft.  My=20 typical flight oil pressure is 70psi although over the past years it has = slowly=20 falling to around 65 psi. 
 
I would consider replacing it, but waiting to = see if the=20 16X is coming out in the next year or two - then I'll just replace the = entire=20 engine.
 
Ed

From: lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My latest full power = run

The stock early relief valves were all set at 71.9 pounds. Those = can be=20 disassembled and a few washers installed under the spring to bring top = pressure=20 up to whatever you want.
Racers like 75 to 100 pounds, the stock twin turbo FD is set at 115 = pounds.=20
 
The .Weber jet mods to the oil spray nozzles in the crank are there = to=20 preclude a piece of broken spring from finding its way into the oil = pump. Also=20 to control how much oil gets sprayed into the rotors for cooling. Racing = Beat=20 says a 200 main jet is about right. I use a 180 air corrector because I = had a=20 lot of them and it fits better. I also use 100 Pounds from a dry sump = pump and=20 do not want too much oil going into the rotors to limit foaming. If you = do this=20 mod to a street engine, the idiot light will blink all of the time at = idle. Too=20 big a leak in the oiling system. Once you have a few revs on hand the = pressure=20 comes up a bit and the light goes out. The rotors foam the oil badly and = that=20 reduces oil pressure and heat transfer (from air in the oil) . So if you = have=20 this mod your idle pressure will be below normal, and you peak pressure = will be=20 a few pounds light from oil temps and (bigger holes).  
 
Once at top RPM, the only limit on pressure should be the relief = valve=20 cracking pressure. You can check that with shop air pressure before = assembly.=20 You can mod the early valves to get more pressure. You can use a heavier = weight=20 oil. Racing oils have more anti scuff compounds and more anti foaming = additives.=20 You can limit oil temps. You can buy an 85 or 110 pound valve from = Racing Beat,=20 or make one yourself. Reinstall the valve with the = drain horizontal to=20 help reduce foaming.  That 68 pounds at full throttle and full = temps is=20 plenty, bearing wise, just not as reassuring as 85 pounds. Be sure that = there is=20 a restrictor in the pressure line to the turbo.  The next time the = pan is=20 off, just mod the valve up to 80 PSI and settle for 75 pounds at cruise. = It=20 won't make any difference, but You will feel better, and we will feel=20 better. 
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
PS. There is a 3 rotor in a second gen = body in my=20 shop.


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Chris Barber = <cbarber@texasattorney.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Tue, Jun=20 7, 2011 6:52 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My latest full power = run

I thought you were running a Renisis. 

Sent from my = iPhone=20 4

On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:40 PM, "Rino" <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>=20 wrote:

I have the mods too and I get 90 psi = at that=20 rpm.
 
Rino
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 = 10:21=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: My = latest full=20 power run

Keep in mind he has the thermal pellet mod AND the = carb jets=20 mod done to the e-shaft.. That could be a factor in oil pressure, = especially=20 when warm.

I like the other numbers = though..

Dave

On=20 6/6/2011 7:48 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
Chris,
   Curious if your oil pressure has been=20 calibrated..............I personally would like to see
slightly more pressure at 6000+ rpm............Lynn jump in = here and=20 tell me if I am off base
about this...............
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA = JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: Chris Barber = <cbarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, June 6, 2011 = 7:34:15=20 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 My latest full power run

See attached photo. I = actually slid=20 just over 32 map at bit over 6200 rpm for a few seconds too with = my IVO at=20 the flattest pitch on this ground static run. Just FYI.=20 =

Chris




------=_NextPart_000_0025_01CC2564.39B592E0--