X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm30-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with SMTP id 4963477 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:50:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.194; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.107] by nm30.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 18:49:32 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.65] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 18:49:32 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2011 18:49:32 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 671008.82765.bm@omp1002.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 79750 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2011 18:49:32 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1304275772; bh=X13P5KrrHvdLsVuPL44jP8jSX3h+m9J0lEeH8zHlGvM=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=PT5t0//O9vGrWcGaDwevTrxJcbsqkMqgTsUlWI2IyhCNAtkIAu258lsCXgPBWFi0tN6eGqOQDXmX6NiERA5kb6bFg7Ig6Iucx9OCGjJSNbljd2avL/jSZk5d1brVYoSSsAeSUVrU6bOJfZw9X+jUOmX+u5NEhrwvIEKLKwP89t4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dpesmBPpum/ueJeoThx8F+zb6R+4KNu96xTyHfltIOgu7ZpbE40cuTvtZNkbZztLDraNQlgYggQ7NNKicksFEny1BRgWs5Uo3QkV1iLQDvNs/ddKKxGtxIvTFDzgB7q8jtsipQQLmIU/2Mpuex97B4bCuH8xYxbg/K2oJiPy+Ww=; Message-ID: <229858.71080.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: g1OHPHEVM1kGK9eGLIYRnBjFArtF.AOaIYKfxFRy5ic42Hw UzWPiFMkbEVPmB1zlyT5g.U2iMCGr5q_1aj32i_uOL1a3XbOcYJ8lX8yWfGs 8dmmRgPBiiz8oyHHmLALikybh4701Txm4lL91oesJTtkrXJi4n0ryTHAeLBs Gg9WhcNcSCQ3jxmssutnY_3g_uuV7zuhjHzlsLdacdwIIgc0HKfVv4KpbqTM kiGuD8UmOMXUHcn0_xGG9pVu7jhvy7VG_9D67EpMEFTaz.nkBxirhWz3wyq3 1ct5qfILgwzGNoy4O6Ge9QNaQu6i4y2kGvK8d48igMJ.0WBJlFi6dt_CDwiW sciiKr5wBJVGB8_pu Received: from [208.114.43.64] by web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 May 2011 11:49:32 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Timing To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1844284420-1304275772=:71080" --0-1844284420-1304275772=:71080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ernest,=0A=0A=A0=A0=A0 If you recall from a few years back Ken Welter (Glas= s Goose/13B with Nitrous =0ABoost for takeoff) reported=0Ahe disabled the t= railing plugs while on nitrous to avoid =0Adetonation.................=0A= =A0=0AKelly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine= =0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO= 4E50 Turbo=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ernest Ch= ristley =0ATo: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Sun, May 1, 2011 12:27:14 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary]= Re: Timing Question for Tracy=0A=0ALehanover@aol.com wrote:=0A=0A> Most en= gine builders don't bother with the split. It has time to work at low =0A>s= peed where more mixture is forced into the cavity in front of the plug, and= =0A>then you get a flame thrower effect when it fires. Not the case at spe= ed, so it =0A>is for emissions for the most part.=A0 In boosted engines tha= t split starts to =0A>look like a detonation event, so again fire both at o= nce.=0A=0AI threw my back out again last week, and the drugs have my sleepi= ng pattern all =0Aout of whack.=A0 Last night, I spent another 6 hours rese= arching what other people =0Ahave done.=A0 One guy reported that he started= loosing performance with 2* of =0Asplit at speed.=A0 It was a boosted engi= ne on a dyno.=A0 The problem I have with the =0ARX-7 forum is that they are= all guys looking for ridiculous performance running =0Astreet engines on a= dyno.=A0 You have to read between the lines on all of it. He =0Adidn't go = any further than 2*, because of the performance drop off, but that =0Afits = perfectly with what you're saying about detonation.=0A=0AI'm going to go wi= th what I've got now, but I'm seriously reconsidering =0Arecasting the moun= t for the trailing VR sensor to take out split as a near =0Afuture project.= =A0 There is more to fear from detonation that a little more low =0Aend emi= ssions.=0A=0A>=A0 That problem firing a double ended coil is the gap size o= n the plugs. Us plugs =0A>you can change the gap on, and set the gap at .01= 0" to .015".=0A>=A0 I used those even with an MSD and never had the problem= . Remember the rotor is =0A>hauling the mixture past the plugs like a freig= ht train.=0A> AR2592 Autolite work fine. Same heat range as NGK -10s. But u= sually $7.00 a box =0A>of 4 at Autozone. The open tip may get better coolin= g than the NGKs=0A=0AOk, Lynn.=A0 That deserves some type of reward for bei= ng a brain dead simple =0Asolution to the root cause of the problem. If you= 're not getting a spark because =0Ayou've set up to much resistance to the = current flow, cut back on the =0Aresistance.=0A=0AI learned a bit more abou= t this in the research last night.=A0 You have a couple =0Aof very authorit= ative guys giving very scientific and clear explanations of why =0Ausing a = split coil won't work.=A0 You have another set of guys going, "Really? =0AI= 've been driving that setup for the past 6 months."=A0 The differentiation = seems =0Ato once again be boost.=A0 So I'm confident that I can run the sin= gle coil set =0Ausing the wasted spark on the trailing, and I can just swap= out the plugs if it =0Alooks like I start missing when the engine is under= load.=0A=0AThe ultimate goal, though, is to have two totally independent i= gnition sources.=A0 =0AThe MegaSquirt guys have worked out the circuitry to= run the stock coils or even =0ACOP.=A0 The problem I have with that is tha= t it puts ignition control back in the =0Alittle homemade box.=A0 I like th= e idea of having the two highly resilient, =0Atime-proven ignition systems = that will keep right on clicking if my fancy little =0Acomputer goes tits u= p.=A0 I'll loose control of the advance, but I can be =0Aconfident that the= limp-home mode of 25* will drag me to crash site.=0A=0AAnd that leads me t= o my next question.=A0 Operationally, what would be the =0Apros/cons of tur= ning off the trailing during cruise flight?=A0 Will it allow =0Adeposit to = build up and ensure the plugs are fouled if I ever do REALLY need =0Athem?= =A0 Or is it just putting a needless load on my generator in order to dump = an =0Aincremental amount of extra heat under the cowl?=0A=0A=0A=0A--=0AHome= page:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=0AArchive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lanc= aironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=0A --0-1844284420-1304275772=:71080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Ernest,
=0A
 
=0A
 &nbs= p;  If you recall from a few years back Ken Welter (Glass Goose/13B wi= th Nitrous Boost for takeoff) reported
=0A
he disabled the trailin= g plugs while on nitrous to avoid detonation.................
 =0A

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

=0A

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"R= WS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

=0A

"TURBONETICS"= _TO4E50 Turbo

=0A

=0A

=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: Ernest Christley <echristley@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lan= caironline.net>
Sent:= Sun, May 1, 2011 12:27:14 PM
Subje= ct: [FlyRotary] Re: Timing Question for Tracy

Lehan= over@aol.com wrote:

> Most engine builders don't bother with = the split. It has time to work at low speed where more mixture is forced in= to the cavity in front of the plug, and then you get a flame thrower effect= when it fires. Not the case at speed, so it is for emissions for the most = part.  In boosted engines that split starts to look like a detonation = event, so again fire both at once.

I threw my back out again last we= ek, and the drugs have my sleeping pattern all out of whack.  Last night, I spent another 6 hours resear= ching what other people have done.  One guy reported that he started l= oosing performance with 2* of split at speed.  It was a boosted engine= on a dyno.  The problem I have with the RX-7 forum is that they are a= ll guys looking for ridiculous performance running street engines on a dyno= .  You have to read between the lines on all of it. He didn't go any f= urther than 2*, because of the performance drop off, but that fits perfectl= y with what you're saying about detonation.

I'm going to go with wha= t I've got now, but I'm seriously reconsidering recasting the mount for the= trailing VR sensor to take out split as a near future project.  There= is more to fear from detonation that a little more low end emissions.
<= BR>>  That problem firing a double ended coil is the gap size on th= e plugs. Us plugs you can change the gap on, and set the gap at .010" to .015".
>  I used those even with an MSD and never had = the problem. Remember the rotor is hauling the mixture past the plugs like = a freight train.
> AR2592 Autolite work fine. Same heat range as NGK = -10s. But usually $7.00 a box of 4 at Autozone. The open tip may get better= cooling than the NGKs

Ok, Lynn.  That deserves some type of re= ward for being a brain dead simple solution to the root cause of the proble= m. If you're not getting a spark because you've set up to much resistance t= o the current flow, cut back on the resistance.

I learned a bit more= about this in the research last night.  You have a couple of very aut= horitative guys giving very scientific and clear explanations of why using = a split coil won't work.  You have another set of guys going, "Really?= I've been driving that setup for the past 6 months."  The differentia= tion seems to once again be boost.  So I'm confident that I can run the single coil set using the wasted spark on the trailing, and I can = just swap out the plugs if it looks like I start missing when the engine is= under load.

The ultimate goal, though, is to have two totally indep= endent ignition sources.  The MegaSquirt guys have worked out the circ= uitry to run the stock coils or even COP.  The problem I have with tha= t is that it puts ignition control back in the little homemade box.  I= like the idea of having the two highly resilient, time-proven ignition sys= tems that will keep right on clicking if my fancy little computer goes tits= up.  I'll loose control of the advance, but I can be confident that t= he limp-home mode of 25* will drag me to crash site.

And that leads = me to my next question.  Operationally, what would be the pros/cons of= turning off the trailing during cruise flight?  Will it allow deposit= to build up and ensure the plugs are fouled if I ever do REALLY need them?  Or is it just putting a needless load on my generator in = order to dump an incremental amount of extra heat under the cowl?


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