X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-db03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.97] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c3j) with ESMTP id 4963454 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:31:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.97; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-db03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p41IUtYa014588 for ; Sun, 1 May 2011 14:30:55 -0400 Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.fc2.1015ef46 (45499) for ; Sun, 1 May 2011 14:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from magic-d25.mail.aol.com (magic-d25.mail.aol.com [172.19.146.159]) by cia-mc08.mx.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMC086-b1bb4dbda6dc1a5; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:30:52 -0400 From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: <25464.197d5cc6.3aef00dc@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:30:52 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Timing Question for Tracy To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_25464.197d5cc6.3aef00dc_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 130 X-AOL-IP: 173.88.24.45 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Lehanover@aol.com --part1_25464.197d5cc6.3aef00dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/1/2011 1:28:10 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time, echristley@att.net writes: I threw my back out again last week, and the drugs have my sleeping pattern all out of whack. Last night, I spent another 6 hours researching what other people have done. One guy reported that he started loosing performance with 2* of split at speed. It was a boosted engine on a dyno. The problem I have with the RX-7 forum is that they are all guys looking for ridiculous performance running street engines on a dyno. You have to read between the lines on all of it. He didn't go any further than 2*, because of the performance drop off, but that fits perfectly with what you're saying about detonation. I'm going to go with what I've got now, but I'm seriously reconsidering recasting the mount for the trailing VR sensor to take out split as a near future project. There is more to fear from detonation that a little more low end emissions. > > That problem firing a double ended coil is the gap size on the plugs. Use > plugs you can change the gap on, and set the gap at .010" to .015". > > I used those even with an MSD and never had the problem. Remember the > rotor is hauling the mixture past the plugs like a freight train. > AR2592 Autolite work fine. Same heat range as NGK -10s. But usually > $7.00 a box of 4 at Autozone. The open tip may get better cooling than > the NGKs Ok, Lynn. That deserves some type of reward for being a brain dead simple solution to the root cause of the problem. If you're not getting a spark because you've set up to much resistance to the current flow, cut back on the resistance. I learned a bit more about this in the research last night. You have a couple of very authoritative guys giving very scientific and clear explanations of why using a split coil won't work. You have another set of guys going, "Really? I've been driving that setup for the past 6 months." The differentiation seems to once again be boost. So I'm confident that I can run the single coil set using the wasted spark on the trailing, and I can just swap out the plugs if it looks like I start missing when the engine is under load. The ultimate goal, though, is to have two totally independent ignition sources. The MegaSquirt guys have worked out the circuitry to run the stock coils or even COP. The problem I have with that is that it puts ignition control back in the little homemade box. I like the idea of having the two highly resilient, time-proven ignition systems that will keep right on clicking if my fancy little computer goes tits up. I'll loose control of the advance, but I can be confident that the limp-home mode of 25* will drag me to crash site. And that leads me to my next question. Operationally, what would be the pros/cons of turning off the trailing during cruise flight? Will it allow deposit to build up and ensure the plugs are fouled if I ever do REALLY need them? Or is it just putting a needless load on my generator in order to dump an incremental amount of extra heat under the cowl? The wasted spark thing only works on the leading plugs. One or the other trailing housing will have an apex seal between the plugs and will light the next dose of mixture. So leading only for lost spark. Running without spark on the trailings just collects oil in the cavity and ruins the plugs4 days ago . Been there, done that. Driver never noticed. Because of "A" apex seal between the plugs the trailing spark must be distributed, either mechanically with a distributor or crank angle sensor or a system with two pickups 180 apart and one reluctor. Then the lost spark leadings can be triggered from another system with one pickup and two reluctors. Because it needs to fire twice per revolution. 4 days ago the wife and I were waiting for a light to change at a 6 lane highway in our pristine Dodge Minivan. A moron in a 6,000 pound Trooper II hit is from behind at cruising speed. A witness said he had his head down and was busy TEXTING............... .He fired us into rush hour traffic to the curb lane on the other side, to the stunned surprise of dozens of speeding drivers. Both seats failed. Seatbacks laid down flat. Both went to the hospital. He has minimum legal insurance. I hired a lawyer. grand Nephew of Woody Hayes. I am going to try for the salvage. I can fix anything. That light had been green for them for a long time and they were up to speed. Why we were not "T" boned with 6 chances, escapes me. I used to build totals, and this will just be another one. So My wife can get a newer van and I can drive this one in a few months. Still dizzy myself. No sleep yet. When I close my eyes it plays over again. Lynn E. Hanover --part1_25464.197d5cc6.3aef00dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
In a message dated 5/1/2011 1:28:10 P.M. Paraguay Standard Time,=20 echristley@att.net writes:
I threw=20 my back out again last week, and the drugs have my sleeping pattern all= out of=20 whack.  Last night, I spent
another 6 hours researching what ot= her=20 people have done.  One guy reported that he started loosing perform= ance=20 with 2*
of split at speed.  It was a boosted engine on a dyno.&= nbsp;=20 The problem I have with the RX-7 forum is that they are all guys
loo= king=20 for ridiculous performance running street engines on a dyno.  You= have to=20 read between the lines on all of it.
He didn't go any further than= 2*,=20 because of the performance drop off, but that fits perfectly with what= you're=20 saying
about detonation.

I'm going to go with what I've got= now,=20 but I'm seriously reconsidering recasting the mount for the trailing VR= sensor=20
to take out split as a near future project.  There is more to= fear=20 from detonation that a little more low end emissions.

> = =20
> That problem firing a double ended coil is the gap size on the= plugs.=20 Use
> plugs you can change the gap on, and set the gap at .010"= to=20 .015".
> 
> I used those even with an MSD and never ha= d the=20 problem. Remember the
> rotor is hauling the mixture past the plu= gs=20 like a freight train.
> AR2592 Autolite work fine. Same heat range= as=20 NGK -10s. But usually
> $7.00 a box of 4 at Autozone. The open ti= p may=20 get better cooling than
> the NGKs

Ok, Lynn.  That de= serves=20 some type of reward for being a brain dead simple solution to the root= cause=20 of the problem.
If you're not getting a spark because you've set up= to=20 much resistance to the current flow, cut back on the resistance.

= I=20 learned a bit more about this in the research last night.  You have= a=20 couple of very authoritative guys giving very
scientific and clear= =20 explanations of why using a split coil won't work.  You have anothe= r set=20 of guys going, "Really?
I've been driving that setup for the past 6= =20 months."   The differentiation seems to once again be boost.&n= bsp;=20 So I'm
confident that I can run the single coil set using the wasted= spark=20 on the trailing, and I can just swap out the plugs
if it looks like= I=20 start missing when the engine is under load.

The ultimate goal,= though,=20 is to have two totally independent ignition sources.  The MegaSquir= t guys=20 have worked out the
circuitry to run the stock coils or even COP.&nb= sp;=20 The problem I have with that is that it puts ignition control back in th= e=20
little homemade box.  I like the idea of having the two highly= =20 resilient, time-proven ignition systems that will keep
right on clic= king=20 if my fancy little computer goes tits up.  I'll loose control of th= e=20 advance, but I can be confident
that the limp-home mode of 25* will= drag=20 me to crash site.

And that leads me to my next question. =20 Operationally, what would be the pros/cons of turning off the trailing= during=20
cruise flight?  Will it allow deposit to build up and ensure th= e=20 plugs are fouled if I ever do REALLY need them?  Or is
it just= =20 putting a needless load on my generator in order to dump an incremental= amount=20 of extra heat under the cowl?
The wasted spark thing only works on the leading plugs. One or the ot= her=20 trailing housing will have an apex seal between the plugs and will light= the=20 next dose of mixture. So leading only for lost spark.
Running without spark on the trailings just collects oil in the cavit= y and=20 ruins the plugs4 days ago . Been there, done that. Driver never noticed.
 
Because of "A" apex seal between the plugs the trailing spark must be= =20 distributed, either mechanically with a distributor or crank angle sensor= or a=20 system with two pickups 180 apart and one reluctor.
 
Then the lost spark leadings can be triggered from another system wit= h one=20 pickup and two reluctors. Because it needs to fire twice per revolution.
4 days=20 ago the wife and I were waiting for a light to change at a 6 lane= highway=20 in our pristine Dodge Minivan. A moron in a 6,000 pound Trooper II hit= is from=20 behind at cruising speed. A witness said he had his head down and was bu= sy=20 TEXTING............... .He fired us into rush hour traffic= to the=20 curb lane on the other side, to the stunned surprise of dozens of=20 speeding drivers. Both seats  failed. Seatbacks laid down flat= . Both=20 went to the hospital. He has minimum legal insurance. I hired a lawyer.= grand=20 Nephew of Woody Hayes. I am going to try for the salvage. I can fix anyt= hing.=20 That light had been green for them for a long time and they were up to= speed.=20 Why we were not "T" boned with 6 chances, escapes=20 me. 
 
 
I=20 used to build totals, and this will just be another one. So My wife can= get a=20 newer van and I can drive this one in a few months. Still dizzy myself.= No=20 sleep yet. When I close my eyes it plays over again.
 
 Lynn E.=20 Hanover
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