X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com ([74.125.82.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTPS id 4892307 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 20:06:33 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.180; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so3532975wyf.25 for ; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:05:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SRBLWmdA8Z6Owb1UELdTramfbj1+tOBVCd9rVseEGEg=; b=Vm7q7aKyaKW2HrpEaEXI8S2yg9EvNOLWe7oU55bPba2qQ2SnmCSXJorThwYHeWaEg1 Tyf4k2mfIOf3eVOdQ2x1zDWksaZ+AVzJNi7BDZDrpgHYce5ZEx/1615HcGRxeyF60QUC LNCZ2jQvP9o0fKf9n7XvscZF8Qxak1sU+N7rk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=gN/Vbf13RT5Nx4cuv6Ig3XdPui8UcPZ5dyywut0ZDtFeMOUbsxyf1U46bTJKNvV2an a8z+zew4JTFM30AqkI231ohW2PoFDcNY93t7zUxwZysWKdAbQF2nwiClTnZVsJrlVxZk 1k/+f5CR5YmodLA+Y8oul22fMFcAat9kJjdm0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.24.132 with SMTP id x4mr926912wex.81.1299373556753; Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:05:56 -0800 (PST) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.230.215 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:05:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 20:05:56 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: utO1XfzZ5ghO8ZGixd8mc_MLIgc Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dbe2d947e775049dc5fb33 --0016e6dbe2d947e775049dc5fb33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Just wanted to mention that the EC2/3 does back the ignition timing off when the MP goes over 30" Hg. It's not a step function but backs it off gradually as the MP goes up. It's backed off about by ~12 degrees when the MP gets up to about 54" Hg. Whether this is the correct curve I don't know but it's the best guess I could make without doing any turbo testing myself. Tracy On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Guys, > One other point that I forgot to mention was ignition timing..........It > is my understanding > that turboed engines should not use excessive timing advance and that the > higher the > boost the less timing advance is needed (or wise).........As I > recall ignition timing as high > as 27 + degrees BTDC has/is used for naturally aspirated > rotarys.........Lynn has stated > many times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actually plenty for most use and not > much more > than that probably should be used for our turbo engines............Again > Lynn jump in here > and give us the straight info.............. > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Kelly Troyer > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sat, March 5, 2011 9:56:53 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator > > John, Chris, > I just remembered one other tidbit of info from our rotary guru > Lynn.........One of > his informative posts on fuel and the effects of octane ratings stated that > as you lean > the auto fuel that many of us use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame front is > slowed and > this mimics the effect of lead in fuel (100 octane+) and makes the > leaned auto fuel > less prone to detonation at the same time lowering EGT temps........I see > no reason > this cannot work the same way with our turbo engines...........Hopfully > Lynn will jump > in here and give us the straight info if I have this wrong........... > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Kelly Troyer > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sat, March 5, 2011 8:50:51 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator > > John, > As you said Chris's problem is probably a combination of > factors..........You mentioned your > intercooled intake temps being about 130F during climb..........Info I have > about intercooling > used 130F as a desired max boosted intake temp..........What are your > typical intake temps at > cruise and what manifold pressures (or PSI) do you use at takeoff, climb > and cruise........Also > what is your EGT at cruise ?............. > > Thanks, > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Slade > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Sat, March 5, 2011 7:54:20 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator > > >Perhaps too much ignition timing or mixture problems such as spending to > much time at best > >power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before > leaning quickly to lean of peak EGT. > Yes, possibly. I always run rich, especially during run-up and take-off. By > running rich, I mean I turn the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted > as best I could, and seems to keep the mixture about right, - but I still > turn it rich for high power ops. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I > occasionally have to reset it and back off the throttle during climb. > Perhaps I'm being too conservative here. > > Its been a while since I checked it, but I seem to recall intake temp > (after the intercooler) being around 130 during climb. The airflow to my > intercooler could/should be improved. > > It's possible that Chris is overdoing the static high power runs. I mostly > did mine during high speed taxi tests and was always mindful of the temps. I > think I read that Chris runs high power static for 15 mins at a time. I > never ran full power static for more than a minute or two. > > No - I don't aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let > the EC2 do it's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt > it's that. As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, or a > combination of the three, possibly combined with "destructive testing" on > the ground (which I did in the air :). > > Chris - what oil are you using? I used Mobil dino oil during initial > testing and Mobil 1 thereafter. > > Regards, > John > > > On 3/4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > John, > Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fairly tough and is > only using > about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing detonation > ?............Perhaps too > much ignition timing or mixture problems such as spending to much time at > best > power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before > leaning > quickly to lean of peak EGT..........What EGT temps do you routinely see > during > takeoff, climb and cruise ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruise > ?............ > > Thanks, > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Slade > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Fri, March 4, 2011 4:30:29 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator > > On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > engine runs reported by Chris at high manifold pressure, high coolant > temps and as you mentioned > > probably high intake temps with little or no airflow across the > intercooler............. > I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, > often with the temps at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear > "pre-ignition" and back off the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my > seals - but mine are 3mm 'indestructible' seals from Tracy. > John Slade > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > --0016e6dbe2d947e775049dc5fb33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to mention that the EC2/3 does back the ignition timing off whe= n the MP goes over 30" Hg.=A0 It's not a step function but backs i= t off gradually as the MP goes up. =A0 It's backed off about by ~12 deg= rees when the MP gets up to about 54" Hg. =A0 Whether this is the corr= ect curve I don't know but it's the best guess I could make without= doing any turbo testing myself.

Tracy

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 11:58 A= M, Kelly Troyer <kel= tro@att.net> wrote:
Guys,
=A0=A0 One other=A0point that I forgot to mention was=A0ignition timin= g..........It is my understanding
that turboed engines should not use excessive timing advance and that = the higher the
boost the less timing advance is needed (or wise).........As=A0I recal= l=A0ignition timing as high
as 27 + degrees BTDC=A0has/is used for naturally aspirated rotarys....= .....Lynn has stated
many times that 20+ degrees BTDC is actually plenty for most use and n= ot much more
than that probably should be used for our turbo engines............Aga= in Lynn jump in=A0here
and give us the straight info..............=A0=A0
=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo



From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
= To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, = 2011 9:56:53 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Knock sensor and indica= tor

John, Chris,
=A0=A0=A0=A0 I just remembered one other tidbit of info from our rotar= y guru Lynn.........One of
his informative posts on fuel and the effects of octane ratings stated= that as you lean
the auto fuel that many of us use (87 to 91 octane) that the flame fro= nt is slowed and
this mimics the effect of=A0lead in fuel=A0(100 octane+) and makes the= leaned=A0auto fuel
less prone to detonation at the same time lowering EGT temps........I = see no reason
this cannot work the=A0same way with our=A0turbo engines...........Hop= fully Lynn will jump
in here and give us the straight info if I have this wrong...........<= /div>
=A0=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
= To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 8= :50:51 AM
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

John,
=A0=A0 As you said=A0Chris's problem is probably a combination of = factors..........You mentioned your
intercooled intake temps being about 130F during climb..........Info I= have about intercooling
used 130F as a desired max=A0boosted intake temp..........What are=A0y= our typical=A0intake temps at
cruise and what manifold pressures (or PSI) do you=A0use at takeoff, c= limb and cruise........Also
what is your EGT at cruise ?.............
=A0
Thanks,=A0
=A0=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: John Slade <jslade@canardavia= tion.com>
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, March 5, 2011 7= :54:20 AM
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

>Perhaps too much i= gnition timing or=A0mixture problems such as spending to much time at best= =20
>power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power befo= re leaning quickly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT.
Yes, possibly. I always run = rich, especially during run-up and take-off. By running rich, I mean I turn= the mixture knob to 2 or 3pm. My EC2 is adjusted as best I could, and seem= s to keep the mixture about right,=A0 - but I still turn it rich for high p= ower ops. My EGT alarm is set at 1750, and I occasionally have to reset it = and back off the throttle during climb. Perhaps I'm being too conservat= ive here.

Its been a while since I checked it, but I seem to recall intake temp (= after the intercooler) being around 130 during climb. The airflow to my int= ercooler could/should be improved.

It's possible that Chris is o= verdoing the static high power runs. I mostly did mine during high speed ta= xi tests and was always mindful of the temps. I think I read that Chris run= s high power static for 15 mins at a time. I never ran full power static for more than a minute or two.

No - I don= 9;t aggressively lean at cruise - I set the mixture at 12 and let the EC2 d= o it's thing. Besides - Chris hasn't reached cruise YET, so I doubt= it's that. As you say - it has to be timing, mixture or intake temps, = or a combination of the three, possibly combined with "destructive tes= ting" on the ground (which I did in the air :).

Chris - what oil are you using? I used Mobil dino oil during initial te= sting and Mobil 1 thereafter.

Regards,
John


On 3= /4/2011 11:39 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
John,
=A0=A0=A0 =A0Chris is using Tracy's apex seals (2mm) which are fai= rly tough and is only using
about 3 psi boost so any ideas on what is causing=A0detonation ?......= ......Perhaps too=A0
much ignition timing or=A0mixture problems such as spending to much ti= me at best
power mixture (1700+ f EGT) instead of richer than best power before l= eaning
quickly to=A0lean of peak=A0EGT..........What EGT temps do you routine= ly see during
takeoff, climb and cruise ?..........Do you aggressively lean at cruis= e ?............
=A0
Thanks,=A0=A0
=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: John Slade &l= t;jslade@canardaviation.com>
<flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net>
Sent: Fri, March 4, 2011 4= :30:29 PM
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Knock sensor and indicator

On 3/4/2011 4:43 PM, K= elly Troyer wrote:
> engine runs reported by Chris at high manifold pressure, high coolant = temps and as you mentioned
> probably high intake temps with little o= r no airflow across the intercooler.............
I did many, many engine runs and high speed taxi tests prior to flight, often with the temp= s at the limits. On occasion I was able to hear "pre-ignition" an= d back off the throttle. There was no sign of damage to my seals - but mine= are 3mm 'indestructible' seals from Tracy.
John Slade

--
Homepage:=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= br>


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