X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTP id 4883790 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:41:14 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (imo-ma03.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.138]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p1QNeZKm005583 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:40:35 -0500 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.f99.d0f947f (56012) for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.140]) by cia-md07.mx.aol.com (v129.9) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD076-5c464d698f6c3a4; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:40:31 -0500 Received: from webmail-m014 (webmail-m014.sim.aol.com [64.12.101.98]) by smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (v129.9) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA014-5c464d698f6c3a4; Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:40:28 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Diagnostic help please I think regarding coils/plugs EC2 etc Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:40:28 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 72.192.216.115 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CDA425AF1CBB54_1CE0_46A8E_webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33298-STANDARD Received: from 72.192.216.115 by webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com (64.12.101.98) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:40:28 -0500 Message-Id: <8CDA425AF159728-1CE0-1E194@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CDA425AF1CBB54_1CE0_46A8E_webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Check the basics- all of them. Are all your injectors firing? I got mine= cleaned and flow tested prior to first startup. Disconnect some and run= them in mode 1 to check for firing.Then repeat on the others, all separat= ely. Check timing and TDC. YOu can get an air hold from NAPA to screw into= the spark plug hole for around $6. Use this to check for minimum combusti= on chamber volume( TDC) Check to make sure all the plugs fire at the right= time.=20 Brian Trubee =20 =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Feb 24, 2011 7:40 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Diagnostic help please I think regarding coils/pl= ugs EC2 etc Hi Chris, It's always difficult to diagnose things at a distance when the clues= are vague. The symptoms you do describe (starting better with coils disc= onnected, etc) don't fit any pattern I've ever encountered so I suspect= something wrong in the basics.=20 Start at the beginning. =20 Do you really have a GOOD reference for TDC on rotor 1? Are you SURE the initial static timing of the CAS is right? If A acts differently and is now set on defaults, have you tried adjusting= the timing in Mode 8?=20 Do you know where the EC2 timing adjustment is set on A and B? You often mention the mixture setting and how you set when starting. You= should realize that this has almost nothing to do with the initial start.= The engine initially starts on the Primer shots you give it. If the mi= xture is wrong the engine will either stall or run rough but that's AFTER= that initial roar from the engine. This is especially true of cold start= . Hot starts are more critical of how you prime. If you over-do it, it'= s easy to foul the plugs and the frustrating cycle of dealing with a flood= ed rotary with fouled plugs begins. My usual advice is that if the engin= e doesn't crank after a few 4 to 5 second cranking attempts, stop trying= and find out what's wrong. More is just wear & tear on the starter and= the pilots nerves. When the setup and procedure is right it should star= t in less than 1 second of cranking. Tracy On 24/02/2011, at 10:46 AM, Chris Barber wrote= : I got my engine buckled back up with the new seals and everything back on= the plane. =20 I have gotten it to start, but, honestly, it does not seem as smooth as it= has in the past. =20 However, the good new is, so far, it is starting much easier. Hard starti= ng, especially when hot has been a consistent problem. =20 That being said, I am having some anomalies other than some rougher runnin= g. The most notable is that I was not getting the engine to start on Comp= uter A at any mixture level, however, I would switch to B and advance the= mixture to about 3 o'clock and it would start about as well as it ever ha= d, consistently. Controller A has been reset to factory defaults, however,= Controller B is set to some long forgotten settings (if I understand corr= ectly there is not way to see the settings on B, but the fact it is starti= ng on B at least indicates it can start). I hesitate to transfer A to B= until I can get A functioning well. Once started, it "sounds" to be miss= ing a bit. To try to diagnose it I first checked the plugs. The were ins= talled new day before yesterday. All looked as I would expect and all hav= e been fired so some kind of ignition event is occurring.=20 =20 To try to dig a little deeper, I disconnected the trailing plugs and the= engine now started on Controller A without problem. I tried to disconnec= t all the plugs in various manners (only front rotor, only primary, only= secondary and only rear). It would start with difficulty on B with all= the plugs connected, But would not start at all with just the front or re= ar rotor connected. I was somewhat concerned I may have been running on= only one chamber, however, trying to run the engine on only one chamber= with no success seems to dismiss the idea that I was only running on one= rotor chamber. =20 I hooked up all the plugs again and now when I started I turned OFF the se= condary coil switch and the engine started well on Controller A and run we= ll. Hmmmmm. I would turn the secondary coils on once started and it woul= d seem to run a little stronger. However, when I had both the primary coi= ls on AND the secondary coils on when STARTING, the engine was hard to sta= rt and would not run as smoothly as when started with just the primaries= and then turning the secondary coils on. =20 If I remember correctly, the primary and secondary plugs spark at the same= time with the RWS Controller, however, it seems almost as if the secondar= y's are "fighting" the primaries. Like I mentioned, the A controller was= reset to factory settings following my lasts assembly. =20 Am I triggering any thoughts. What am I missing. What next diagnostic wou= ld you guys/gals suggest? Yes, I have verified the spark plug wires are= going from the correct coil to the correct plug. When I hooked all the pl= ugs back up I slightly moved around the plug wires, I had the two front ro= tor wires crossing over my B lead to my alternator so I gave these wires= more separation. It seemed to have helped the roughness a bit. I am lik= ely to buy new and better plug wires tomorrow as the ones I have have been= around awhile and were not the highest quality as I was in a base develop= ment stage at the time. =20 Since the list has been soooooo quiet as of late, other than my posting of= my bent apex seals I am supposing that y'all have plenty of time to give= this latest issue some thought.....unless of course you have all been out= flying, thus not posting ;-) =20 Thanks guys, I do feel a little closer today. =20 Chris =20 ----------MB_8CDA425AF1CBB54_1CE0_46A8E_webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Check the basics- all of them. Are all= your injectors firing? I got mine cleaned and flow tested prior to first= startup. Disconnect some and run them in mode 1 to check for firing.Then= repeat on the others, all separately. Check timing and TDC. YOu can get= an air hold from NAPA to screw into the spark plug hole for around $6. Us= e this to check for minimum combustion chamber volume( TDC) Check to make= sure all the plugs fire at the right time.

Brian Trubee




Hi Chris,
   It's always difficult to diagnose things at a distance when= the clues are vague.  The symptoms you do describe (starting better= with coils disconnected, etc)  don't fit any pattern I've ever encou= ntered so I suspect something wrong in the basics.

  Start at the beginning.   

 Do you really have a GOOD reference for TDC on rotor 1?
Are you SURE the initial static timing of the CAS is right?
If A acts differently and is now set on defaults, have you tried adjusting= the timing in Mode 8?
Do you know where the EC2 timing adjustment is set on A and B?

You often mention the mixture setting and how you set when starting. =   You should realize that this has almost nothing to do with the init= ial start.   The engine initially starts on the Primer shots you= give it.  If the mixture is wrong the engine will either stall or ru= n rough but that's AFTER that initial roar from the engine.  This is= especially true of cold start.   Hot starts are more critical= of how you prime.  If you over-do it, it's easy to foul the plugs an= d the frustrating cycle of dealing with a flooded rotary with fouled plugs= begins.   My usual advice is that if the engine doesn't crank= after a few 4 to 5 second cranking attempts,  stop trying and find= out what's wrong.  More is just wear & tear on the starter and= the pilots nerves.   When the setup and procedure is right it= should start in less than 1 second of cranking.

Tracy


On 24/02/2011, at 10:46 AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:

I got my engine buckled back up with the new seals and everything bac= k on the plane.
 
I have gotten it to start, but, honestly, it does not seem as smooth= as it has in the past.
 
However, the good new  is, so far, it is starting much easier.= Hard starting, especially when hot has been a consistent prob= lem.
 
That being said, I am having some anomalies other than so= me rougher running.  The most notable is that I was not getting the= engine to start on Computer A at any mixture level, however, I would = ;switch to B and advance the mixture to about 3 o'clock and it would start about as well as it ever had, consistently<= /a>. Controller A has been reset to factory defaults, however, Contro= ller B is set to some long forgotten settings (if I understand correc= tly there is not way to see the settings on B, but the fact it is starting on B at least indicates it can start).&= nbsp; I hesitate to transfer A to B until I can get A&nbs= p;functioning well.  Once started, it "sounds" to be missing= a bit.  To try to diagnose it I first checked the plugs.  The were installed new day before yesterday.  All looked as I would expe= ct and all have been fired so some kind of ignition event is occurring<= /a>. 
 
To try to dig a little deeper, I disconnected the trailing plugs and= the engine now started on Controller A without problem.  I trie= d to disconnect all the plugs in various manners (only front rotor= , only primary, only secondary and only rear).  It would start with difficulty on B with all the pl= ugs connected, But would not start at all with just the front or rear roto= r connected.  I was somewhat concerned I may have been running on onl= y one chamber, however, trying to run the engine on only one chamber with no success seems to dismiss the idea that= I was only running on one rotor chamber.
 
I hooked up all the plugs again and now when I started I turned OFF= the secondary coil switch and the engine started well= on Controller A and run well.  Hmmmmm.&n= bsp; I would turn the secondary coils on once started and it would seem to run a little stronger.  However, when I had both th= e primary coils on AND the secondary coils on when STARTING, the engine wa= s hard to start and would not run as smoothly as when started<= a> with just the primaries and then turning the secondary coils on.
 
If I remember correctly, the primary and secondary plug= s spark at the same time with the RWS Con= troller, however, it seems almost as if the secondary's= are "fighting" the primaries.  Like I mentioned, the A controller was reset to factory settings followi= ng my lasts assembly.
 
Am I triggering any thoughts. What am I missing.  What next diag= nostic would you guys/gals suggest?  Yes, I have verified the spark= plug wires are going from the correct coil to the correct plug. When I ho= oked all the plugs back up I slightly moved around the plug wires, I had the two front rotor wires crossing over my B lead= to my alternator so I gave these wires more separation.&nbs= p; It seemed to have helped the roughness a bit.  I am likely to buy= new and better plug wires tomorrow as the ones I have have been around awhi= le and were not the highest quality as I was in a base development stage= at the time.
 
Since the list has been soooooo quiet as of late,= other than my posting of my bent apex seals I am supposing that y'all hav= e plenty of time to give this latest issue some th= ought.....unless of course you have all been out flying, thus not posting ;-)
 
Thanks guys, I do feel a little closer today.
 
Chris

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