X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTPS id 4871790 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:30:21 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.180; envelope-from=dmlobner@gmail.com Received: by eyf18 with SMTP id 18so583193eyf.25 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:29:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=DqHArLxrRw1GNV9J4766i54RF0cULojjzu+tWQVwm1Y=; b=QAm0Z1g1UTJVv8obkgcSVqZaaAQVBBwKtEFrqZKtTKgVy5GUWz8+mGeRavWJopFanF ydwQPKq4k70+fPiyfhP0omxEJ7Abs5CJkSrtQua0zN82OuYsCQuSPBddOlobcG8Be8i6 LXTOkMV7gpq3101wMEG+aC1sH7vrqe4xueQK0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=gS0tN5eWWTv038yR945Ug9jp5ngS+N0ITNWkp917ITwYgDsW2PEXvtxKPR2LPv2hF/ A/D5AUyWiHO8HtsNOZQxO/pTJF13cqvyw5AVM6vvTaucafXPlKTuiqhvH8zG4OQXO/Ea MUtaJ0M4nvkrHA6q9ct5l+byVHv9Jdn0vTzrE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.34.19 with SMTP id j19mr207575ebd.63.1297819785930; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.33.135 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:29:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:29:45 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ceramic Apex Seals....curiosity REceramin/carbon/steelst From: Dustin Lobner To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be03a52a7a8049c5c3764 --0015174be03a52a7a8049c5c3764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 For what it's worth, I called Adam at www.rotaryengines.com and had a half hour discussion with him about things. He was remarkably open about putting it in an aircraft (a lot of other places won't give you the time of day if they hear "aircraft" as I'm sure some of you know). I said that for an aircraft he wouldn't put in ceramics because they're more there for super-high stress situations like drag racing, but for an aircraft the cost:benefit ratio isn't there. Plus, he's not 100% convinced on the reliability. Dustin On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 6:26 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 2/15/2011 11:58:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > cbarber@texasattorney.net writes: > > Heck, tearing down my engine seems to be a routine event as of late > > That was my understanding too....about being nicer to the housings. > > I was just wondering about what I don't know or what could be expanded on. > > Like Dave said, minding parameters is the proper course but I would like to > have as clear an understanding as possible for my own edification. > > > Ceramics have now come of age in many areas. Any machine shop has tooling > in the form of ceramic triangles that clamp into tool holders. It maters not > if the work piece is heat treated, or harder than Chinese arithmetic, the > ceramic bits go through it like it was butter. The bits are cheap, and > discarded if fouled or dulled. > > Ceramic apex seals are the gold standard of apex seals. No detectible wear > on the seals or the housing chrome. In our case for two seasons of racing. > Stronger than steel. Oblivious to high temperatures. > And for racing, track the housing shape at any RPM, using doubled springs, > and even with twice the spring pressure, have less than half the drag of a > carbon seal, and far less than stock steel seals. An automatic 5 HP over > steel seals. Ceramics are so light that you cannot help but grin when you > pick one up. > > Ceramics do survive detonation events that would put all steel seals in the > muffler. But not for long. > > I have read that RA seals also hold up well. Ceramics are used in nearly > all pro racing applications. > > I sold a used set to another racer for $500.00. They were identical to new > seals after two years of service. > > The down side is cost. And for one piece seals, typical of racing > applications, you must be sure you have the minimum end clearance, about > .0015". > > There have been efforts to develop a two piece seal that is less sensitive > to length variations, as they run at zero end clearance for much better cold > starting. > > Mazda competition sells racing ceramics, probably Linetties. There are > other manufacturers. > > Here is one. > > http://www.nrsrotorsports.com/ > > Lynn E. Hanover > --0015174be03a52a7a8049c5c3764 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For what it's worth, I called Adam at www.rotaryengines.com and had a half hour discussion with him a= bout things.=A0 He was remarkably open about putting it in an aircraft (a l= ot of other places won't give you the time of day if they hear "ai= rcraft" as I'm sure some of you know).=A0 I said that for an aircr= aft he wouldn't put in ceramics because they're more there for supe= r-high stress situations like drag racing, but for an aircraft the cost:ben= efit ratio isn't there.=A0 Plus, he's not 100% convinced on the rel= iability.

Dustin

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 6:26 P= M, <Lehanover@ao= l.com> wrote:
In a message dated 2/15/2011 11:58:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 cbarber@texa= sattorney.net writes:
Heck,=20 tearing down my engine seems to be a routine event as of late=20 <sigh>

That was my understanding too....about being nicer to= the=20 housings.

I was just wondering about what I don't know or what= could be=20 expanded on.

Like Dave said, minding parameters is the proper cour= se=20 but I would like to have as clear an understanding as possible for my own= =20 edification.

=A0
Ceramics have now come of age in many areas. Any machine shop ha= s tooling=20 in the form of ceramic triangles that clamp into tool holders. It maters no= t if=20 the work piece is heat treated, or harder than Chinese arithmetic, the cera= mic=20 bits go through it like it was butter. The bits are cheap, and discarded if= =20 fouled or dulled.
=A0
Ceramic apex seals are the gold standard of apex seals. No detectible = wear=20 on the seals or the housing chrome. In our case for two seasons of racing.= =20 Stronger than steel. Oblivious to high temperatures.
And for racing, track the housing shape at any RPM, using doubled spri= ngs,=20 and even with twice the spring pressure, have less than half the drag of a= =20 carbon seal, and far less than stock steel seals. An automatic 5 HP over st= eel=20 seals. Ceramics are so light that you cannot help but grin when you pick on= e up.=20
=A0
Ceramics do survive detonation events that would put all steel seals i= n the=20 muffler. But not for long.
=A0
I have read that RA seals also hold up well. Ceramics are used in near= ly=20 all pro racing applications.
=A0
I sold a used set to another racer for $500.00.=A0They were identical = to=20 new seals after two years of service.
=A0
The down side is cost. And for one piece seals, typical of racing=20 applications, you must be sure you have the minimum end clearance, about=20 .0015".
=A0
There have been efforts to develop a two piece seal that is less sensi= tive=20 to length variations, as they run at zero end clearance for much better col= d=20 starting.
=A0
Mazda competition sells racing ceramics, probably Linetties. There are= =20 other manufacturers.
=A0
Here is one.
=A0
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover

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