X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTP id 4871188 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:54:26 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:49:40 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Ceramic Apex Seals....curiosity REceramin/carbon/steelst Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Ceramic Apex Seals....curiosity REceramin/carbon/steelst Thread-Index: AQHLzS5EsUdv7L8nBkqiOO3IdFrmH5QCxvNI Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:53:53 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035729C55@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [166.139.76.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035729C55FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035729C55FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That was not the question. I wanted a better understanding of the various factors involved. Thanks though ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Dave [david.staten@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:34 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ceramic Apex Seals....curiosity REceramin/carbon/s= teelst Avoiding adverse operating conditions will pay much larger dividends than p= aying out the nose for exotic racing grade seals. The guys who are flying a= re doing so without having to pay that premium. I would explore what they a= re doing, operating wise, that you are not. Dave On 2/15/2011 10:22 AM, Chris Barber wrote: Since I am likely about to replace my apex seals, at least in my rear rotor= , I was surfing around the net looking at options regarding apex seals, O-r= ings, gaskets etc. The reality is, I will probably use Tracy's seals, howe= ver, while on Mazdatrix looking at stuff, I once again noticed the ceramic = apex seals available there and their $300.00 price for EACH one, thus costi= ng $1800.00 for a set. YIKES. I am pretty certain we have all looked at th= ese and wondered about them. Personally I pretty much dismissed them as no= t enough of a balance for what ya get. Then I realized that I am not reall= y certain what that $1800 buys. Also, I noticed the steel apex seals and the carbon. What, in a nutshell, = are the differences? Are we paying more for negligible improvement or just= a difference? While I understand we want solid reliability for our aviati= on use I want to make those choices based on knowledge and not speculation.= Or, the "it is more expensive so it must be better" way of thinking...and = I gotta spend more to get the best in my airplane.... Dollars does not alw= ays equal reliable, best, safe etc...otherwise we would likely not be choos= ing to try to use the rotary. On a related note, since Apex seals for rotaries is a very limited market, = how many companies can actually make seals. I wonder since Mazdatrix sells= each seal for $300.00. However, Red Tail Racing sells a complete set with= springs for only $500.00. http://www.redtail-racing.com/ Red Tail states they have successfully used the seals in bridge ported appl= ications in race applications. They say the seals for made for the Mazda i= n industrial commercial use...I believe for natural gas applications. No, I do not intend to jump on the cheap ceramic seal wagon, however, with = such a limited market it makes me wonder who make the seals Mazdatrix sells= and the ones sold by Red Tail. Like some alternators that are used in bot= h cars and planes coming off the same assemble line, but with a significan= t price difference, I am curious about various pedigrees. I mentioned this a while back on the other list, but, IIRC, it got lost in = the theory. I am wanting to expand my knowledge base so ya'll's opinions are sought. Thanks guys and gals. Chris Barber Houston --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3035729C55FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That was not the question.

 

I wanted a better understanding of the various factors involved.

 

Thanks though

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Dave [david.staten@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:34 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ceramic Apex Seals....curiosity REceramin/c= arbon/steelst

Avoiding adverse operating conditions will pay much larger dividends t= han paying out the nose for exotic racing grade seals. The guys who are fly= ing are doing so without having to pay that premium. I would explore what t= hey are doing, operating wise, that you are not.

Dave

On 2/15/2011 10:22 AM, Chris Barber wrote:

Since I am likely about to replace my apex seals, at least in my rear ro= tor, I was surfing around the net looking at options regarding apex se= als, O-rings, gaskets etc.  The reality is, I will probably use T= racy's seals, however, while on Mazdatrix looking at stuff, I once again noticed the ceramic apex seals available there and = their $300.00 price for EACH one, thus costing $1800.00 for a set. YIKES.&n= bsp; I am pretty certain we have all looked at these and wondered about the= m.  Personally I pretty much dismissed them as not enough of a balance for what ya get.  Then I realize= d that I am not really certain what that $1800 buys.

 

Also, I noticed the steel apex seals and the carbon.  What, in a nu= tshell, are the differences?  Are we paying more for negligible improv= ement or just a difference?  While I understand we want solid reliabil= ity for our aviation use I want to make those choices based on knowledge and not speculation. Or, the "it is more expe= nsive so it must be better" way of thinking...and I gotta spend m= ore to get the best in my airplane....  Dollars does not always equal = reliable, best, safe etc...otherwise we would likely not be choosing to try to use the rotary.

 

On a related note, since Apex seals for rotaries is a very limited = market, how many companies can actually make seals.  I wonder since&nb= sp;Mazdatrix sells each seal for $300.00.  However, Red Tail Raci= ng sells a complete set with springs for only $500.00. http://www.red= tail-racing.com/

 

Red Tail states they have successfully used the seals in bridge ported a= pplications in race applications.  They say the seals for made fo= r the Mazda in industrial commercial use...I believe for natural gas a= pplications.

 

No, I do not intend to jump on the cheap ceramic seal wagon, however, wi= th such a limited market it makes me wonder who make the seals Mazdatr= ix sells and the ones sold by Red Tail.  Like some alternators that ar= e used in both cars and planes coming off the same assemble line,  but with a significant price difference, I a= m curious about various pedigrees. 

 

I mentioned this a while back on the other list, but, IIRC, it got lost = in the theory.

 

I am wanting to expand my knowledge base so ya'll's opinions a= re sought.

 

Thanks guys and gals.

 

Chris Barber

Houston


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