X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.216.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTPS id 4871160 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:34:38 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.216.52; envelope-from=david.staten@gmail.com Received: by qwi4 with SMTP id 4so321898qwi.25 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:34:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=N+AHZBbiugeWgjgtqcE6/3+5tQW4rfTvXbE0iK/bAp0=; b=ODZkLTCNIWzOR74XcgislWeGuL/rkqoH4+4Py+tVVN826EdTf5oq5MldLqftVBiO5i 2uFMPy1ioC1HI1HN/SBSdcfNC72sGBYlldn4X5eGMSliUqx7qflQ2AHedoritJLt+JCf z6R6wSwVfFPCkX++qoYuHbTnxn8OFqkbjD6Xc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; b=MXgOBEUwEwRdZ5ism7za9PwzHkTeQVBcxkdxroTP4nTcorGB/7+vG0p0MIs/ooVt7n wW6rbr1Gf5NmnsCzfp9yzZHhqwlM9HUq1OKtq2pOcx8EIGu54yk/01N2zEKgRip6QYq8 /CddMTWjS/w2wsjJ2zIiwjAnXsFz9wbAl/qJE= Received: by 10.224.37.73 with SMTP id w9mr783923qad.212.1297787641240; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:34:01 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([216.80.140.133]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t7sm2776346qcs.4.2011.02.15.08.33.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:33:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D5AAB01.8010201@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:34:09 -0600 From: Dave User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Ceramic Apex Seals....curiosity RE ceramin/carbon/steelst References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030407000509010702080203" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030407000509010702080203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Avoiding adverse operating conditions will pay much larger dividends than paying out the nose for exotic racing grade seals. The guys who are flying are doing so without having to pay that premium. I would explore what they are doing, operating wise, that you are not. Dave On 2/15/2011 10:22 AM, Chris Barber wrote: > > Since I am likely about to replace my apex seals, at least in my rear > rotor, I was surfing around the net looking at options regarding apex > seals, O-rings, gaskets etc. The reality is, I will probably use > Tracy's seals, however, while on Mazdatrix looking at stuff, I once > again noticed the ceramic apex seals available there and their $300.00 > price for EACH one, thus costing $1800.00 for a set. YIKES. I am > pretty certain we have all looked at these and wondered about them. > Personally I pretty much dismissed them as not enough of a balance for > what ya get. Then I realized that I am not really certain what that > $1800 buys. > > Also, I noticed the steel apex seals and the carbon. What, in a > nutshell, are the differences? Are we paying more for negligible > improvement or just a difference? While I understand we want solid > reliability for our aviation use I want to make those choices based > on knowledge and not speculation. Or, the "it is more expensive so it > must be better" way of thinking...and I gotta spend more to get the > best in my airplane.... Dollars does not always equal reliable, best, > safe etc...otherwise we would likely not be choosing to try to use the > rotary. > > On a related note, since Apex seals for rotaries is a very limited > market, how many companies can actually make seals. I wonder > since Mazdatrix sells each seal for $300.00. However, Red Tail Racing > sells a complete set with springs for only $500.00. > http://www.redtail-racing.com/ > > Red Tail states they have successfully used the seals in bridge ported > applications in race applications. They say the seals for made for > the Mazda in industrial commercial use...I believe for natural gas > applications. > > No, I do not intend to jump on the cheap ceramic seal wagon, however, > with such a limited market it makes me wonder who make the > seals Mazdatrix sells and the ones sold by Red Tail. Like some > alternators that are used in both cars and planes coming off the same > assemble line, but with a significant price difference, I am curious > about various pedigrees. > > I mentioned this a while back on the other list, but, IIRC, it got > lost in the theory. > > I am wanting to expand my knowledge base so ya'll's opinions are sought. > > Thanks guys and gals. > > Chris Barber > > Houston > --------------030407000509010702080203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Avoiding adverse operating conditions will pay much larger dividends than paying out the nose for exotic racing grade seals. The guys who are flying are doing so without having to pay that premium. I would explore what they are doing, operating wise, that you are not.

Dave

On 2/15/2011 10:22 AM, Chris Barber wrote:

Since I am likely about to replace my apex seals, at least in my rear rotor, I was surfing around the net looking at options regarding apex seals, O-rings, gaskets etc.  The reality is, I will probably use Tracy's seals, however, while on Mazdatrix looking at stuff, I once again noticed the ceramic apex seals available there and their $300.00 price for EACH one, thus costing $1800.00 for a set. YIKES.  I am pretty certain we have all looked at these and wondered about them.  Personally I pretty much dismissed them as not enough of a balance for what ya get.  Then I realized that I am not really certain what that $1800 buys.

 

Also, I noticed the steel apex seals and the carbon.  What, in a nutshell, are the differences?  Are we paying more for negligible improvement or just a difference?  While I understand we want solid reliability for our aviation use I want to make those choices based on knowledge and not speculation. Or, the "it is more expensive so it must be better" way of thinking...and I gotta spend more to get the best in my airplane....  Dollars does not always equal reliable, best, safe etc...otherwise we would likely not be choosing to try to use the rotary.

 

On a related note, since Apex seals for rotaries is a very limited market, how many companies can actually make seals.  I wonder since Mazdatrix sells each seal for $300.00.  However, Red Tail Racing sells a complete set with springs for only $500.00. http://www.redtail-racing.com/

 

Red Tail states they have successfully used the seals in bridge ported applications in race applications.  They say the seals for made for the Mazda in industrial commercial use...I believe for natural gas applications.

 

No, I do not intend to jump on the cheap ceramic seal wagon, however, with such a limited market it makes me wonder who make the seals Mazdatrix sells and the ones sold by Red Tail.  Like some alternators that are used in both cars and planes coming off the same assemble line,  but with a significant price difference, I am curious about various pedigrees. 

 

I mentioned this a while back on the other list, but, IIRC, it got lost in the theory.

 

I am wanting to expand my knowledge base so ya'll's opinions are sought.

 

Thanks guys and gals.

 

Chris Barber

Houston


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