X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2o) with ESMTPS id 4870119 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:13:53 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by ewy23 with SMTP id 23so2526191ewy.25 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:13:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=2S2C2nfx5XnMOZgxqXqMkM3Pd3HvQEUKfI9DTZALbuk=; b=bGtMlW6tkcFPQD0KFIJ7t0dJ9ujlUsk0lME0OGUIo8uJYWKznNKUHEfpTJyfDt+/8Q 0lxz088JGdivnfh+iJAjzPvDUnQYzwsf0ruawUUqBDmwrqTnceZygBxw7W+dXpzb6NEc 70U60Ye2e/Zj134zB4wTCUquTcpoOP/Jyz/IQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=mc96dulWYc694iXhvwDRbZii1MIMVUTP9DztZOsqIoZ1RviR+mJ8/qo1n+Xbqla2m7 M1DSwMQxtYwF/aoRL58ApH1xG4MuqGOdzyK/xMMrdm0XS0OHqd8RQi7F9Dz06VIEBW90 4vLABKdU4BGGyjYuczlshRmIBswSlZcxZtEAE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.165.204 with SMTP id e54mr3910863wel.48.1297714396902; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:13:16 -0800 (PST) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.59.65 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 12:13:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:13:16 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WrNnG7XN3iYSimLb9KS7FStG46M Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e656b59aa5b650049c43adbc --0016e656b59aa5b650049c43adbc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Call Laura at the engine parts office (see website for number). She can probably help you out there. Tracy On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > Ah. > > Will so. Unless new plugs solve the problem. > > Do you sell individual seals? Since I have no indication of problems in > number 1 I would prefer to not wake a sleeping dog. I know you have heard it > before but money is tight. > > Thanks. > > Sent from my iPhone 4 > > On Feb 14, 2011, at 11:12 AM, "Tracy" wrote: > > Hi Chris, > It never occurred to me that you might replace only the Apex seal > springs and not the seals themselves. If you fried the springs you > undoubtedly fried the seals too. The failure mode (if they are RA Seals) > is usually the seal sagging in the groove so that it no longer seals in the > center of the rotor housing. Detonation this bad on the factory seals is > usually fracture which usually wipes out the housings and rotors too. > > To verify, put two seals face to face and see if you can see daylight in > the center. > > Tracy > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Chris Barber < > cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote: > >> To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered bad apex >> seal springs in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation. I cracked the keg >> and replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all back up. While apart, >> I did not discover any damage other than the bad springs. >> >> >> >> I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2's, >> I am still having problems with very hard starting. When I do get it to >> start it is at full lean and I believe only if I switch over to B. >> Once started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate >> setting (even if the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B >> about the same. I have reset A to factory settings. I do have a bit larger >> injectors, per Mistrals recommendation, but did crank her up to 22. MAP and >> adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid point per the EC2 manual. >> >> >> >> It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 >> seconds...betting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then kindajust starts running as a continuation of the starter being turned, instead >> of the engine actually "firing up". >> >> >> >> I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex seals >> are nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am only >> getting about 60 psi on the rear rotor. I am getting about 80 psi on the >> front rotor, which is what I expected. >> >> >> >> Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor. I am confidant that I got >> it together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so confidant as the >> facts is the facts. The rear rotor is only 60 psi which IF I understand >> correctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the >> engine does not seem as smooth when running as it has in the past). >> >> >> >> I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks but >> kept it at lower power. Today, however I did run it up for several seconds >> and was able to produce a steady 6300 RPM at 33.4 MAP. >> >> >> >> I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set", but I >> am not really thinking this holds water...or compression for that matter. I >> also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did come up a bit, but >> the REALLY hard start remains. >> >> >> >> I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what I >> must have missed. But since I am pretty sure I did it right before WHAT, >> pray tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/if I open >> her up again???? Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a >> teardown. FYI, the plugs looked like I would have expected....brownish ashy >> with no oil build up. Also, I am not having any current indication of >> coolant in the chambers (don't ask me how I know how to look for that tell >> tale sign [-( >> >> >> >> Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or >> attempts. >> >> >> >> I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me..... >> >> >> >> Chris Barber >> >> Houston >> > > --0016e656b59aa5b650049c43adbc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Call Laura at the engine parts office (see website for number).=A0=A0 She c= an probably help you out there.

Tracy

On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net>= wrote:
Ah.=A0

Will so. Unless new plugs solve the problem.=A0

Do you sell individual seals? =A0Since I have no indication of problem= s in number 1 I would prefer to not wake a sleeping dog. I know you have he= ard it before but money is tight.=A0

Thanks.=A0

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Feb 14, 2011, at 11:12 AM, "Tracy" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wro= te:

Hi Chris,
=A0=A0 It never occurred to me that you might replace only the Apex seal sp= rings and not the seals themselves.=A0 If you fried the springs you undoubt= edly fried the seals too.=A0=A0 The failure mode (if they are RA Seals) is = usually the seal sagging in the groove so that it no longer seals in the center of the rotor housing.=A0 Detonation = this bad on the factory seals is usually fracture which usually wipes out t= he housings and rotors too.

=A0 To verify, put two seals face to face and see if you can see daylight i= n the center.=A0

Tracy

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Chris Barber <= span dir=3D"ltr"> <cbarber@texasatt= orney.net> wrote:

To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I=A0discovered= bad=A0apex seal springs in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation.=A0 I = cracked the keg and replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all back u= p.=A0 While apart, I did not discover any damage other than the bad springs.

=A0

I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2&#= 39;s, I am still having problems with very hard starti= ng.=A0=A0 When I do get it to start it is at full lean and I believe only i= f I switch over to B.=A0 Once=A0started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate setting (even if = the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B about the same.=A0 I= have reset A to factory settings.=A0 I do have a bit larger injectors, per= Mistrals recommendation, but did=A0crank her up to 22.=A0MAP and adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid po= int per the=A0EC2 manual.

=A0

It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or=A060 second= s...betting my starter is hating me)=A0before it starts and then=A0kinda= just starts running as a continuation of the starter bei= ng turned, instead of the engine actually "firing up".

=A0

I pulled the plugs to check inside=A0and unlike before all the apex=A0se= als are nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am only = getting about 60 psi on the rear rotor.=A0 I am getting about 80 psi on the= front rotor, which is what I expected.

=A0

Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor.=A0 I am confidant that I = got it together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so con= fidant as the facts is the facts.=A0The rear rotor is only 60 psi wh= ich IF I understand correctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the engine does not se= em as smooth when running as it has in the past).

=A0

I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks b= ut kept it at lower power.=A0 Today, however I did run it up for several se= conds and was able to produce a steady=A06300 RPM at 33.4 MAP.

=A0

I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set&qu= ot;, but I am not really thinking this holds water...or compression for tha= t matter.=A0 I also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did come= up a bit, but the REALLY hard start remains.

=A0

I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what I= must have missed.=A0 But since I am pretty sure I did it right before WHAT= , pray tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/if I= open her up again????=A0 Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a teardown.=A0 FYI, the plugs looked like I= would have expected....brownish ashy with no oil build up. Also, I=A0am no= t having any current indication of coolant in the chambers (don't ask m= e how I know how to look for that tell tale sign [-(

=A0

Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or att= empts.

=A0

I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me.....

=A0

Chris Barber

Houston



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