X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2k) with ESMTP id 4864962 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:02:45 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%15]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.001; Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:57:57 -0600 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft CC: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Low Compression in rotor 2...still Thread-Index: AQHLzGm6HQqmBblsiUG4nEnt4fhIP5QBScCi Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:02:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F33994C6D9B647369BE07E83988CC90Dtexasattorneynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_F33994C6D9B647369BE07E83988CC90Dtexasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah. Will so. Unless new plugs solve the problem. Do you sell individual seals? Since I have no indication of problems in nu= mber 1 I would prefer to not wake a sleeping dog. I know you have heard it = before but money is tight. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Feb 14, 2011, at 11:12 AM, "Tracy" > wrote: Hi Chris, It never occurred to me that you might replace only the Apex seal spring= s and not the seals themselves. If you fried the springs you undoubtedly f= ried the seals too. The failure mode (if they are RA Seals) is usually th= e seal sagging in the groove so that it no longer seals in the center of th= e rotor housing. Detonation this bad on the factory seals is usually fract= ure which usually wipes out the housings and rotors too. To verify, put two seals face to face and see if you can see daylight in = the center. Tracy On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Chris Barber <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote: To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered bad apex seal s= prings in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation. I cracked the keg and = replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all back up. While apart, I d= id not discover any damage other than the bad springs. I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2's, I= am still having problems with very hard starting. When I do get it to st= art it is at full lean and I believe only if I switch over to B. Once star= ted I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate setting (even = if the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B about the same. = I have reset A to factory settings. I do have a bit larger injectors, per = Mistrals recommendation, but did crank her up to 22. MAP and adjust Mode 3 = once started to just over the mid point per the EC2 manual. It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 seconds...b= etting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then kinda just starts= running as a continuation of the starter being turned, instead of the engi= ne actually "firing up". I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex seals are= nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am only getting= about 60 psi on the rear rotor. I am getting about 80 psi on the front ro= tor, which is what I expected. Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor. I am confidant that I got i= t together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so confidant as the fa= cts is the facts. The rear rotor is only 60 psi which IF I understand corre= ctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the eng= ine does not seem as smooth when running as it has in the past). I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks but = kept it at lower power. Today, however I did run it up for several seconds= and was able to produce a steady 6300 RPM at 33.4 MAP. I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set", but I am= not really thinking this holds water...or compression for that matter. I = also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did come up a bit, but = the REALLY hard start remains. I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what I mu= st have missed. But since I am pretty sure I did it right before WHAT, pra= y tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/if I open her up= again???? Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a teardown. FY= I, the plugs looked like I would have expected....brownish ashy with no oil= build up. Also, I am not having any current indication of coolant in the c= hambers (don't ask me how I know how to look for that tell tale sign [-( Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or attemp= ts. I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me..... Chris Barber Houston --_000_F33994C6D9B647369BE07E83988CC90Dtexasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah. 

Will so. Unless new plugs solve the problem. 

Do you sell individual seals?  Since I have no indication of prob= lems in number 1 I would prefer to not wake a sleeping dog. I know you have= heard it before but money is tight. 

Thanks. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Feb 14, 2011, at 11:12 AM, "Tracy" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:

Hi Chris,
   It never occurred to me that you might replace only the Apex s= eal springs and not the seals themselves.  If you fried the springs yo= u undoubtedly fried the seals too.   The failure mode (if they ar= e RA Seals) is usually the seal sagging in the groove so that it no longer seals in the center of the rotor housing.  Detonati= on this bad on the factory seals is usually fracture which usually wipes ou= t the housings and rotors too.

  To verify, put two seals face to face and see if you can see dayligh= t in the center. 

Tracy

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:29 PM, Chris Barber <= span dir=3D"ltr"> <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:

To remind y'all, following very hard starting, I discovered = bad apex seal springs in my rotor 2 most likely due to detonation.&nbs= p; I cracked the keg and replaced the rear apex springs and sealed it all b= ack up.  While apart, I did not discover any damage other than the bad springs.

 

I have been trying to tune the engine, however, even using BOTH my EC2's= , I am still having problems with very hard starting.&= nbsp;  When I do get it to start it is at full lean and I believe only= if I switch over to B.  Once started I can take the mixture from full lean to a more moderate setting (even if = the tuning is still lacking) and it will run on A or B about the same. = ; I have reset A to factory settings.  I do have a bit larger injector= s, per Mistrals recommendation, but did crank her up to 22. MAP and adjust Mode 3 once started to just over the mid= point per the EC2 manual.

 

It takes an extended period of time of cranking (maybe 50 or 60 sec= onds...betting my starter is hating me) before it starts and then = ;kinda just starts running as a continuation of the st= arter being turned, instead of the engine actually "firing up".

 

I pulled the plugs to check inside and unlike before all the apex&n= bsp;seals are nice and springy, HOWEVER, when I do a compression check I am= only getting about 60 psi on the rear rotor.  I am getting about 80 p= si on the front rotor, which is what I expected.

 

Guys and Gals, I just rebuilt this rear rotor.  I am confidant that= I got it together properly...but, obviously, I shouldn't be so conf= idant as the facts is the facts. The rear rotor is only 60 psi = which IF I understand correctly would lead to hard starting (and perhaps some rough running as the engine does not se= em as smooth when running as it has in the past).

 

I have been getting it to run with much effort over the last few weeks b= ut kept it at lower power.  Today, however I did run it up for several= seconds and was able to produce a steady 6300 RPM at 33.4 MAP.

 

I had it suggested that the new springs needed some time to "set&qu= ot;, but I am not really thinking this holds water...or compression for tha= t matter.  I also tried squirting in some MM oil and compression did c= ome up a bit, but the REALLY hard start remains.

 

I am once again mostly resigned to tearing open the engine to see what I= must have missed.  But since I am pretty sure I did it right before W= HAT, pray tell, may you fine gentlepersons suggest I look for when/i= f I open her up again????  Or, even better, suggestions that would prevent a teardown.  FYI, the plugs looked lik= e I would have expected....brownish ashy with no oil build up. Also, I = ;am not having any current indication of coolant in the chambers (don't ask= me how I know how to look for that tell tale sign [-(

 

Please feel free to ask probing questions regarding my method and or att= empts.

 

I am betting ya'll are getting tired of hearing from me.....

 

Chris Barber

Houston


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