X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.11) with ESMTP id 4640222 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:37:47 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.50; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wwf26 with SMTP id 26so83363wwf.7 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:37:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=PWzk4fCKd4He22EK+oj+qdgflcysX9Cjy7Raau7X3nk=; b=CxlyXWdzwFYaRWWVl5ewM0fOdV8JQ2SUj+bc8sxIh6g1UoayVXXOGn17MeciULwEVF dVv55RnxQ+ho6k5GVH6xRWl7T+xiVUz3uLiCdYhGtwhRKBnt1/LnwhPKWnjVTrReNb3g dDw0RxDMwkqNXnpp/UA2zp6TLDMUCj61TWpyQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=D6doNtaBw6KoG5cxu/HDlAFIEgXNkjROJNMCnwCmHBZs4x5/Zi8m0vVfRoBgjAgdxd vj+Sic4JfiIrHP8CJzpa20frFUJRnxs+mxnGwLqM4ttt+ln2Px8eUE7nXaWjUBQtxze2 Du1u17FqrP5vppfqUvw8OUKgRrd2yHlC88i2g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.90.79 with SMTP id d57mr3751398wef.65.1292290633865; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:37:13 -0800 (PST) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.15.169 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Dec 2010 17:37:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:37:13 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: SpRS4gPNu9pHM3OvqoAOBVxImRA Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fw: Water temps From: Tracy To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7e0342d9b9f049754dca2 --0016e6d7e0342d9b9f049754dca2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Chrissi wrote: *"If the oil were being cooled with water only and we wanted the best possible chance at that, wouldn't we want to feed it the cooler water from the high pressure side of the pump prior to entering the block?"* Yes, that would give you the best chance at cooling the oil but it misses the opportunity to get the increased cooling efficiency of boosting the rad inlet temperature with the 230 degree oil coming out of the pump. In other words, you will need a bigger rad if you use the cold side of the coolant for the oil cooling. How much bigger is the answer I'd like to know, but I don't. Tracy On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > *From:* "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" > *To:* keltro@att.net > *Sent:* Mon, December 13, 2010 4:05:31 PM > *Subject:* Re: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Water temps > > Thanks Tracy for the adjustment in my thinking. I don't want to target > temps unrealistically. > Where does that leave us with our pick up and return points for the > oil/water cooling system? If the oil were being cooled with water only and > we wanted the best possible chance at that, wouldn't we want to feed it the > cooler water from the high pressure side of the pump prior to entering the > block? > > Whatever space we would use for an oil/air cooler takes away from potential > coolant radiator space. Putting the two side by side becomes less efficient > spacewise for both due to losses for structure etc. If it is not possible to > cool the oil adequately with water alone then we'll need to back up a little > and make other layout plans. I remember Richter's Cozy III with three P-51 > scoops, it got the job done but was like dragging a parachute in drag. > > Kelly, to your comment below, while I am sure we'd have no problem putting > adequate heat into the oil, I am very concerned about keeping any more than > just enough out of it. Much easier going one way then the other =) > ...Chrissi > > In a message dated 12/13/2010 2:49:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, > keltro@att.net writes: > > Chrissi, > My own opinion is that after warm up and in flight the oil temp leaving > the engine before the > coolers (air or water to oil) will almost always be well above > 160-180 F..............If it is not this > high then the oil to water cooler will actually help warm it to a more > efficient temp.........IMHO > > Somebody correct me if this is a fallacy !!.......................<:) > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" > *To:* keltro@att.net > *Sent:* Mon, December 13, 2010 12:52:06 PM > *Subject:* Re: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Water temps > > This is where I get confused: > > said previously, > -ideal water temp = 160*~180*F > -ideal oil temp = 160*F > > If we are cooling oil with water that is at best hotter than the ideal temp > of the oil, then are we not adding heat to it rather than removing it? > > If we are trying to cool oil, why would we feed the highest temp water to > the oil/water cooler rather than the coolest temp water by tapping into the > pump housing where it enters the block? > > Based on feedback, the water entering the block may be as low as > 150*~160*F, would this be cool enough to do an adequate job of cooling the > oil? > > Also, which model of Mocal is being used? > > ...Chrissi > > --0016e6d7e0342d9b9f049754dca2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chrissi wrote:=A0 =
"If the oil were being=20 cooled with water only and we wanted the best possible chance at that,=20 wouldn't we want to feed it the cooler water from the high pressure sid= e of the pump prior to entering the block?"

Yes, that would = give you the best chance at cooling the oil but it misses the opportunity t= o get the increased cooling efficiency of boosting the rad inlet temperatur= e with the 230 degree oil coming out of the pump.=A0 In other words, you wi= ll need a bigger rad if you use the cold side of the coolant for the oil co= oling.=A0=A0 How much bigger is the answer I'd like to know, but I don&= #39;t.

Tracy



On Mon, D= ec 13, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net> wrote:

----- Forwarded = Message ----
From: &quo= t;CozyGirrrl@aol.co= m" <Coz= yGirrrl@aol.com>
To: keltro@att.net
Sent: Mon, December 13, 2= 010 4:05:31 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [FlyRotar= y] Re: Fw: Water temps

Thanks Tracy for the adjustment in my thinking. I don't want to ta= rget temps unrealistically.
Where does that leave us with our pick up and return points for the oi= l/water cooling system? If the oil were being cooled with water only and we= wanted the best possible chance at that, wouldn't we want to feed it t= he cooler water from the high pressure side of the pump prior to entering t= he block?
=A0
Whatever space we would use for an oil/air cooler takes away from pote= ntial coolant radiator space. Putting the two side by side becomes less eff= icient spacewise for both due to losses for structure etc. If it is not pos= sible to cool the oil adequately with water alone then we'll need to ba= ck up a little and make other layout plans. I remember Richter's Cozy I= II with three P-51 scoops, it got the job done but was like dragging a para= chute in drag.
=A0
Kelly, to your comment below, while I am sure we'd have no problem= putting adequate heat into the oil, I am very concerned about keeping any = more than just enough out of it. Much easier going one way then the other = =3D)
...Chrissi
=A0
In a message dated 12/13/2010 2:49:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, keltro@att.net writes:<= /div>
Chrissi,
=A0=A0=A0 My own opinion is that after warm up and in flight the oil t= emp leaving the engine before the
coolers (air or water=A0 to oil) will almost always be well above 160-= 180=A0F..............If it is not this
high then the=A0oil to water cooler will actually help warm it to a mo= re efficient temp.........IMHO
=A0
=A0=A0 Somebody correct me if this is a fallacy !!....................= ...<:)
=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


From: "CozyGirrrl@aol.com" <= CozyGirrrl@aol.com<= /a>>
To: keltro@att.net
Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 12:52:06 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [FlyRotary] Re= : Fw: Water temps

This is where I get confused:
=A0
said previously,
-ideal water temp =3D 160*~180*F
-ideal oil temp =3D 160*F
=A0
If we are cooling oil with water that is at best hotter than the ideal= temp of the oil, then are we not adding heat to it rather than removing it= ?
=A0
If we are trying to cool oil, why would we feed the highest temp water= to the oil/water cooler rather than the coolest temp water by tapping into= the pump housing where it enters the block?
=A0
Based on feedback, the water entering the block may be as low as 150*~= 160*F, would this be cool enough to do an adequate job of cooling the oil?<= /div>
=A0
Also, which model of Mocal is being used?
=A0
...Chrissi

--0016e6d7e0342d9b9f049754dca2--