X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4587997 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:00:47 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=dmlobner@gmail.com Received: by ewy4 with SMTP id 4so4123961ewy.25 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:00:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=jlqAfSzy7wqdx5qa9gKKHUaFSzSYwV0qEp5KM5K/j6k=; b=kgJnK1sUv2z7/cIVK2YnsI4WIDubGksVop2TJEErsBR9T/s9U3uxVce32SIv0FOlcl XrwfXvSCUQmj2NvXL35k39Oo7P3J6zsS1i+GdfzhEte1DP9Ko5CsvuUhuuulToZdF9KD 0fDCKPZ80aJTDNuEqJxxpfZe7ZGYhSLPQKVF8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=lMVQHgqEhirdF4yxphiqHi7QdNWPvHMMNwd9IJdM/MYp3qSajFwkCfJU20pI2CD9Nc uPKWANJ7W+vlP6FnabIR9jM5kfw7tydmXDcdHh9QOAL06fOepeZ+E8MmI82eOsMS/hNN /twH0kfTGQraTw7TJUr3PX2033d2Alahs1y2E= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.26.15 with SMTP id b15mr1153554ebc.13.1290434409319; Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:00:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.27.200 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:00:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:00:09 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Nitro in a rotary aircraft - N/A 20B? From: Dustin Lobner To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174a050a931ae60495a4ac33 --0015174a050a931ae60495a4ac33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tracy, That all makes sense and is what I expected. Maybe I can do a bit of my own research...do you know what the gear material is? We'll see where this ends up...I've pretty much decided that I won't install nitro in the beginning. Mind you, the "beginning" is years away yet, so who knows what we'll know by then? Thanks! Dustin On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Tracy wrote: > Thanks for the comments Dustin, > The RD-1x was designed with plenty of margin in mind but keep in mind > the original target was a normally aspirated 13B. 50% more for 20B > applications wasn't too much of a stretch but there are a few known places > where anything above that is approaching the estimated limits. The shear pin > that links the sun gear to the input shaft and the rubber dampers come to > mind. The shear pin can be made larger but the dampers are a bit more > problematic for reasons that are too long to go into here. > > Also keep in mind that mind that these drives were not subjected to an > exhaustive mechanical analysis which I've always tried to make clear to > builders. Many builders have asked if the drives have been tested to FAA > Part 23 standards. The first answer is a chuckle and the second is that if > you expect that standard to be met, do not use these reduction drives. > > Bottom line is that the exact mechanical limits are unknown. This is > definitely Expermental aviation. > > Tracy Crook > > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Dustin Lobner wrote: > >> Tracy - awesome, that sounds great. Thanks for designing a flexible >> product. I know you probably didn't have nitro in mind when designing that >> feature, it's nice that it'll work though. >> >> While we're on the topic of nitro Tracy, how well do you think your RD-1C >> will stand up to the occasional 350HP burst? I do a lot of mechanical >> testing at my company and actually generate a lot of the AGMA curves that >> our company uses in aircraft hardware, I just don't know how they get >> applied by the designer. I'd be planning on a teardown after a shorter than >> normal amount of time. If I do go this route, I plan on keeping a log of >> nitro shots and have each one count towards half an hour or an hour of PSRU >> lifetime. Does that seem reasonable? What time would you recommend, or any >> feelings on the matter in general? >> >> Ken - What model of NOS kit do you have? I went to their website and it >> seems to be broken out by car type and whatnot. Some sort of a generic kit, >> or was it a custom setup? Thanks! >> >> Dustin >> >> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Tracy wrote: >> >>> I think Ken is right that the EC3 would work fine with nitrous but to be >>> on the safe side you could set the B controller up with less ignition >>> advance and/or disable the trailing coils during takeoff with the nitros >>> shot. There is a coil disable input on the EC3 for coil testing that could >>> be used for that purpose. >>> >>> Tracy >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Dustin Lobner wrote: >>> >>>> Ken, >>>> >>>> How easy would it be to add it after the fact? I'm building a Bearhawk, >>>> planning to put it on floats eventually, but not right away. The nitro >>>> would be assistance getting off the water, same as you. If I were to add >>>> the nitro when I add floats, how hard would that be? >>>> >>>> Dustin >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Ken Welter wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have been running NOS with a 125 hp burst to get my Coot up on the >>>>> step and out of the water, without it I would just have a boat that could >>>>> not fly, I think it would work fine with Tracy's setup as the nitrous system >>>>> adds extra fuel to make up for the extra oxygen, use only the NOS brand >>>>> system as most other systems are junk. >>>>> Ken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Dustin Lobner wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, I'll put that idea to rest for awhile then. Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Dustin >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tracy wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nitrous systems that I've seen have a completely independent system >>>>>> for injecting additional fuel when the nitrous is on. The EC3 has no way of >>>>>> knowing anything about the NOX system so it does nothing different. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tracy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:26 AM, Dustin Lobner wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Some talk on HomeBuiltAirplanes.com forums brought up the question, >>>>>>> has someone ever used nitrous oxide on a rotary aircraft install? I'm >>>>>>> pretty sure a supercub-type plane did that awhile back (on a Lyco) for a >>>>>>> super short takeoff roll using a fixed pitch cruise prop (with a crapton of >>>>>>> HP at takeoff). That's close to my application in the end, probably with a >>>>>>> N/A 20B, hence the interest. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tracy, how would your EC3 handle short bursts of nitro? Would that >>>>>>> totally throw the mixture curve, would I need to manual adjust while doing >>>>>>> it, or would it auto compensate somehow? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dustin >>>>>>> Rockford, IL >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > --0015174a050a931ae60495a4ac33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy,

That all makes sense and is what I expected.=A0 Maybe I can d= o a bit of my own research...do you know what the gear material is?=A0
=
We'll see where this ends up...I've pretty much decided that I = won't install nitro in the beginning.=A0 Mind you, the "beginning&= quot; is years away yet, so who knows what we'll know by then?

Thanks!

Dustin



On Mon,= Nov 22, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Thanks for the comments Dustin,
=A0=A0=A0 The RD-1x was designed with pl= enty of margin in mind but keep in mind the original target was a normally = aspirated 13B.=A0 50% more for 20B applications wasn't too much of a st= retch but there are a few known places where anything above that is approac= hing the estimated limits. The shear pin that links the sun gear to the inp= ut shaft and the rubber dampers come to mind.=A0 The shear pin can be made = larger but the dampers are a bit more problematic for reasons that are too = long to go into here.=A0

Also keep in mind that mind that these drives were not subjected to an = exhaustive mechanical analysis which I've always tried to make clear to= builders.=A0 Many builders have asked if the drives have been tested to FA= A Part 23 standards.=A0 The first answer is a chuckle and the second is tha= t if you expect that standard to be met, do not use these reduction drives.= =A0

Bottom line is that the exact mechanical limits are unknown.=A0 This is= definitely Expermental aviation.

Tracy Croo= k


On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 9:51 PM, Dustin Lobner <dmlobner@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Tracy - awesome, = that sounds great.=A0 Thanks for designing a flexible product.=A0 I know yo= u probably didn't have nitro in mind when designing that feature, it= 9;s nice that it'll work though.=A0

While we're on the topic of nitro Tracy, how well do you think your= RD-1C will stand up to the occasional 350HP burst?=A0 I do a lot of mechan= ical testing at my company and actually generate a lot of the AGMA curves t= hat our company uses in aircraft hardware, I just don't know how they g= et applied by the designer.=A0 I'd be planning on a teardown after a sh= orter than normal amount of time.=A0 If I do go this route, I plan on keepi= ng a log of nitro shots and have each one count towards half an hour or an = hour of PSRU lifetime.=A0 Does that seem reasonable?=A0 What time would you= recommend, or any feelings on the matter in general?

Ken - What model of NOS kit do you have?=A0 I went to their website and= it seems to be broken out by car type and whatnot.=A0 Some sort of a gener= ic kit, or was it a custom setup?=A0 Thanks!

Dustin=A0

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
I think Ken is right that the EC3 would work fine with nitrous but to be on= the safe side you could set the B controller up with less ignition advance= and/or disable the trailing coils during takeoff with the nitros shot.=A0= =A0 There is a coil disable input on the EC3 for coil testing that could be= used for that purpose.

Tracy


On = Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Dustin Lobner <dmlobner@gmail.com>= wrote:
Ken,

How easy would it be to add it after the fact?=A0 I'm build= ing a Bearhawk, planning to put it on floats eventually, but not right away= .=A0 The nitro would be assistance getting off the water, same as you.=A0 I= f I were to add the nitro when I add floats, how hard would that be?

Dustin


On= Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Ken Welter <rotarycoot.ken@gmail.co= m> wrote:

=A0=A0I have been= running NOS with a 125 hp burst to get my Coot up on the step and out of t= he water, without it I would just have a boat that could not fly, I think i= t would work fine with Tracy's setup as the nitrous system adds extra f= uel to make up for the extra oxygen, use only the NOS brand system as most = other systems are junk.
=A0Ken



On Nov 21, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Dustin Lobner wrote:
Yeah, I'll put that idea to rest for aw= hile then.=A0 Thanks!

Dustin

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 6:42 A= M, Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Nitrous systems t= hat I've seen have a completely independent system for injecting additi= onal fuel when the nitrous is on.=A0 The EC3 has no way of knowing anything= about the NOX system so it does nothing different.

Tracy


On Sun,= Nov 21, 2010 at 1:26 AM, Dustin Lobner <dmlobner@gmail.com> wrote:
Some talk on Ho= meBuiltAirplanes.com forums brought up the question, has someone ever u= sed nitrous oxide on a rotary aircraft install?=A0 I'm pretty sure a su= percub-type plane did that awhile back (on a Lyco) for a super short takeof= f roll using a fixed pitch cruise prop (with a crapton of HP at takeoff).= =A0 That's close to my application in the end, probably with a N/A 20B,= hence the interest.

Tracy, how would your EC3 handle short bursts of nitro?=A0 Would that t= otally throw the mixture curve, would I need to manual adjust while doing i= t, or would it auto compensate somehow?

Thanks!

Dustin
Rockford, IL








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