X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta15.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.228] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4580358 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:40:13 -0500 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.59.228; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from omta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.44]) by qmta15.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id XZzR1f00A0xGWP85Fcff2g; Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:39:39 +0000 Received: from gregiv ([24.6.73.102]) by omta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Xcfd1f0042CQjog3Ycfd7V; Tue, 16 Nov 2010 00:39:39 +0000 Message-ID: <066C7A91F8F74346987602F43EA3FC40@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] "COSMO" or 93-95 RX7 Auto Xmission Bell Housing Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:48:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0E23_01CB84E4.FF4B5C90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0E23_01CB84E4.FF4B5C90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Kelly; Try Brian at 310-901-4805. He's where I got my 20B, and had the = transmission too, which I didn't need. Guy's loaded with Rotary parts. = If you don't get him at first, keep trying, it's worth it. Greg Ward Legacy 20B N178RG STILL in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:23 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] "COSMO" or 93-95 RX7 Auto Xmission Bell Housing Mark, Forgot to ask you something in the previous post.............Was a = auto transmission included with either of your 20B engines ?............My "Cosmo" 13B included = the transmission which I robbed the bell housing from to provide an extension for my "RD1C" = like "Bulent" did for his "COSY" ( see attached photo ).............This required a longer RD1C = input shaft of which there are only two in existance that Tracy agreed make ( against his better = judgement ) as these .were "One Offs" and pricey................I am trying to find another = bell housing from a "Cosmo" as a spare...............I do not think anyone ever has a use for the = transmission and they end up as scrap..............The 93-95 RX7 auto xmission bell housing is the = same but very few RX7's of those years had a automatic xmission.............. If you or anyone else of the group has or knows where I might find = one of these bell housings=20 please let me know............... P.S.- The bell Housing bolts to the transmission for those not = familar with it........... Thanks, =20 Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 10:19:03 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) Kelly,=20 Well, I would usually settle for somewhere around 2300 rpm as it got = too "ratty" below that RPM. I didn't mention it in my earlier post, but = I had borrowed Bob Darrah's EC-2 to run while mine was being re-worked . = Bob's EC-2 didn't have the injector snubbers, and it had not been = upgraded since 2006. Tracy was surprised that it ran as well as it did. = However, while not finely tuned, it did run better than my unit. =20 Yes, I suppose I'll have to record a ground run, just for the fun of = it, and to help us through the long winter months ahead. Stay tuned (no = pun intended). =20 Mark On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: Mark, What was your idle MP before the EC2 update ?...............Do = you have any video with=20 sounds of that "Leg Chilling" 20B at idle ?.................I could = use a thrill !!.................<:) Kelly Troyer "DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually) "13B ROTARY"_ Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Ed Anderson =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) 7000 rpm static - WoW! sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to = absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT! Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison = of port timing information from Paul Yaw You can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable = greater than the turbo 13B. So for a given rpm, I would conclude that = since average amount of time the PP intake is open longer to the = atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B, that the intake manifold = pressure would be higher for the same rpm. So what you are seeing just = may well be "normal" for a PP port. But then I don't own and have no experience with a PP. Ed =20 Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B IO 32=B0 ATDC IC 50=B0 ABDC EO 71=B0 BBDC EC 48=B0 ATDC=20 Mazda Factory Peripheral Port IO 86=B0 BTDC IC 75=B0 ABDC EO 73=B0 BBDC EC 65=B0 ATDC=20 A ASThis site is meant to give information From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. =20 As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run = as it should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to = convert from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have = limited success, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the = CAS sensor, and possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to = figure out. I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. =20 About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called = Tracy to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original = configuration. I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded = the software to the latest version. I got it back on Friday and was = anxious to see how it would perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on = Saturday. Yea, it started on the third prop blade and ran quite well, = although the Mixture knob was not at "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. = Following the instructions in the manual, first thing I did was to = adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# injectors. Now it was = running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. A little adjusting of = the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idling down around 1500 = rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The exhaust tone at = low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chills up your leg. = ;-0 =20 Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost = do 7000 rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country = town and this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my = engine all over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided = it was time to fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. = There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was = silky smooth. I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At = 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP = settings. Up and down the scale, fine-tuning each address. She was = running like a fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way, like a rotary = should. =20 Issues: =20 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the = MAP at idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will = double-check to make sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 = properly, and check for leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as = well as it does under these circumstances. Note that rather than using = a throttle body, I am using a slide-throttle which is located just a few = inches from the intake ports. So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the = unused oil injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil injection = pump). Could this account for the unusual MAP readings? I do have a = plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere, I can't measure MAP from = there. I think there are others that use this scheme with success. =20 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop = rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the = higher rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will = gradually start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be = tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T = prop. Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the = airframe through the air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing = that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it. 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This = is a new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. = I'll try adjusting the regulator (again). =20 All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to = sort out though. =20 Mark S. Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B Lockhart, TX =20 On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to = make sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a = sweet red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. = David. ----- Original Message ----- From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to = read about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the = list! Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching = football all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) =20 Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final = inspection prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy = the moment! Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the = list! :) =20 Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0E23_01CB84E4.FF4B5C90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Kelly;
Try Brian at = 310-901-4805. =20 He's where I got my 20B, and had the transmission too, which I didn't=20 need.  Guy's loaded with Rotary parts.  If you don't get him = at first,=20 keep trying, it's worth it.
Greg Ward
Legacy 20B N178RG STILL = in=20 progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 = 10:23=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] "COSMO" or = 93-95 RX7=20 Auto Xmission Bell Housing

Mark,
 
    Forgot to ask you something in the previous=20 post.............Was a auto transmission included
 with either = of your=20 20B engines ?............My "Cosmo" 13B included the=20 transmission which I
 robbed the bell housing from to provide an extension = for my=20 "RD1C" like "Bulent" did for his
 "COSY" ( see attached photo ).............This required a = longer=20 RD1C input shaft of which there
 are only two in existance that Tracy agreed make ( against = his=20 better judgement ) as these
.were "One Offs" and pricey................I am trying to find = another=20 bell housing from a "Cosmo"
 as a spare...............I do not think anyone ever has a = use for=20 the transmission and they end up
 as scrap..............The 93-95 RX7 = auto xmission bell=20 housing is the same but very few RX7's
 of those years had a automatic xmission..............
 
   If  you or anyone else of the group has or = knows where=20 I might find one of these bell housings
 please let me know...............
 
 P.S.- The bell Housing bolts to the transmission for those = not=20 familar with it...........
 
 Thanks,
    

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo



From: Mark Steitle=20 <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 = 10:19:03=20 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Kelly,
 
Well, I would usually settle for somewhere around 2300 = rpm as=20 it got too "ratty" below that RPM.  I didn't mention it = in my=20 earlier post, but I had borrowed Bob Darrah's EC-2 to run while mine = was being=20 re-worked .  Bob's EC-2 didn't have the injector snubbers, and it = had not=20 been upgraded since 2006.  Tracy was surprised that it ran as = well as it=20 did.  However, while not finely tuned, it did run better than my=20 unit. 
 
Yes, I suppose I'll have to record a ground run, just for = the fun of=20 it, and to help us through the long winter months ahead.  Stay = tuned (no=20 pun intended). 
 
Mark

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer = <keltro@att.net> = wrote:
Mark,
    What was your idle MP before the EC2 update=20 ?...............Do you have any video with
sounds of that "Leg Chilling" 20B at = idle ?.................I=20 could use a thrill !!.................<:)
 
 

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" = (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ = Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil=20 Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo



From: Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>=20

To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 = 8:39:02 AM=20

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from=20 David)

7000 rpm static - WoW!  sounds like not = enough=20 pitch in the prop to absorb the power - tough situation to be in -=20 NOT!
 
Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle = - here is=20 a comparison  of port timing information from Paul = Yaw
You can see that the total open time of the = PP is=20 considerable greater than the turbo 13B.  So for a given rpm, I = would=20 conclude that since average amount of time  the PP intake is = open=20 longer to the atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B,  that = the=20 intake manifold pressure would be higher for the same rpm.  So = what you=20 are seeing just may well be "normal" for a PP port.
 
But then I don't own and have no experience = with a=20 PP.
 
Ed
 
 =20

 

Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B

IO 32=B0=20 ATDC
IC 50=B0 ABDC
EO 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC

Mazda Factory Peripheral Port

IO 86=B0 BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 = BBDC
EC 65=B0=20 ATDC

 

 

A

 

ASThis site is meant to give=20 information


From: Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless=20 staples...(from David)

OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. 
 
As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to = run as=20 it should.  Problems started about 3 years back when I decided = to=20 convert from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.  While I = did have=20 limited success, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of = the CAS=20 sensor, and possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to = figure=20 out.  I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm.  =
 
About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called = Tracy=20 to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original=20 configuration.  I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod = and=20 upgraded the software to the latest version.  I got it = back on=20 Friday and was anxious to see how it would perform.  I = installed the=20 upgraded EC-2 on Saturday.  Yea, it started on the = third prop=20 blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at=20 "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth.  Following the = instructions in=20 the manual, first thing I did was to adjust Mode=20 3 to compensate for my larger 60# injectors.  Now it = was=20 running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges.  A little = adjusting of=20 the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was = idling=20 down around 1500 rpm.  (Keep in mind that this is = a p-port=20 motor.)  The exhaust tone at low idle is hard to=20 describe...it is enough to send chills up your leg.  = ;-0 =20
 
Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it=20 would almost do 7000 rpm static.  (Keep in mind=20 that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and this was Sunday=20 morning.  You could probably hear me tuning my engine all over=20 town.)  Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was = time to=20 fly.  It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could=20 be.  There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too = high, but=20 the air was silky smooth.  I flew a couple of patterns, = climbing=20 as I circled.  At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning = with Mode=20 9 at different MAP settings.  Up and down the = scale, fine-tuning=20 each address.  She was running like a fine Swiss watch, or = to put=20 it another way, like a rotary should.  
 
Issues: 
1)  MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum = leak as=20 the MAP at idle is reading 17.4".  Next trip to the = airport I will=20 double-check to make sure that I got both lines plugged into = the EC-2=20 properly, and check for leaks elsewhere.  It is amazing = that=20 it idles as well as it does under these = circumstances.  Note=20 that rather than using a throttle body, I am using a = slide-throttle=20 which is located just a few inches from the intake ports.  = So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection = ports in=20 the rotor housings (no oil injection pump).  Could=20 this account for the unusual MAP readings?  I do have = a=20 plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere, I = can't measure=20 MAP from there.  I think there are others that use this scheme = with=20 success. 
2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around = 2000-2100=20 prop rpm.  I can set the prop higher = and get=20 a higher engine rpm, but the higher rpm doesn't translate = into=20 higher speeds.  The speed will gradually = start bleeding=20 off.  Not sure why this is happening.  Could be tuning, or = intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T=20 prop.  Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepower = to push=20 the airframe through the air any faster.  It is annoying = though,=20 knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use = it.
 
3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is=20 low.  This is a new alternator which has been converted to = external=20 regulator.  I'll try adjusting the regulator (again).  =
 
All in all, a very successful weekend.  As usual, = more issues=20 to sort out though. 
 
Mark S.
Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B
Lockhart, TX
 
 

 
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net><= /SPAN>=20 wrote:
Rodger=20 that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make = sure all=20 ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a = sweet red=20 wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. =20 David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: = "Rotary=20 motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Sent:=20 Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey = are those=20 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!  I'm still=20 hoping to read about some flying exploits from this = weekend,=20 from someone on the list!  Surely all our aviators=20 weren't just sitting around watching football all day like us = gimpy /=20 DNIF guys!!!!   :)  
 
Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final=20 inspection prior to first flight!  Take your time, be safe, = and=20 enjoy the moment!  Then post some pictures / data = of the=20 big event on the list!  :)    
 
=
Doug


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