X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4579814 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:18:26 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ewy4 with SMTP id 4so1279131ewy.25 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:17:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SmR4d5M8hTujUbjfYyZC1LzQzlKoFK51tlX1AZOALkc=; b=anT2No9VnwrIZiSwIXToR9F5hbN1GoZwMQd76wilNf9v9V3A6U3Kz8UkpwzvOeQ0Oz +9PH28BzpUQMcnXl2PjwpOFrG8v8ntKEAvzcCgt8axK8HzfW/WOu9j+/QiFCJI2lYAzv SP7DP+J32k+tx8XpErcoOz+q5+b9kIqh5v5s8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=RW+s29HmVJqMmFXAAvAcmQw9Kv+pkIY2nmhE28sikNB4vUY0Hg84iPRteVVwooyU8r AuNy290pNBEHj2GfIf9A1mMJVyiwy0Lf5FHI1F4+OlIO1YzgUfMXBF4oTWFcWGw1mq7L 7F9FskE3CVVrXLHM3SklANfqTuT+Fl3FZGM74= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.67 with SMTP id g3mr765218ebd.25.1289841470724; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.36.17 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:17:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:17:50 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3d8aaddbc904951a9e0c --0015174c3d8aaddbc904951a9e0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, You must be psychic as you answered my question even before I asked it! I was wondering why when in track mode that I was seeing 47-50 MCT addresses. It later dawned on me that with the MAP being > 13" it was causing the EC-2 to jump to the intermediate table even though the rpm's were below 2400. I haven't adjusted Mode 7 as yet. Is this something that you would recommend for my situation? Also, I did adjust the staging point up to 18.5". I didn't think it should be running on both primary and secondary injectors at idle. It still sputters when increasing the throttle from idle. I'll worry about that later. Mark On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Tracy wrote: > I agree with Ed. Between that and the intake chamber point where you get > your manifold pressure, it could be normal. This was the one of the reas= ons > I had to add the RPM map table to the EC2/3. When the engine is below ab= out > 2500 RPM, the EC2/3 uses the RPM table between adr. 0 and 31 to adjust th= e > mixture. Some engine configurations will idle at the same MP as they cou= ld > cruise at. I frequently cruise around at 17" Hg when I'm just sight seei= ng > but the rpm is up around 4100 so it is no longer in the same MAP table.. > > Note that you might have to adjust the RPM table MP threshold (Mode 7 wit= h > Cold Start ON) for extreme examples like this because I think the default > threshold is about 13.5" Hg. The EC2/3 will switch to the MP MAP tab= le > above this threshold even if the RPM is below the RPM threshold. > > Tracy > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Ed Anderson w= rote: > >> 7000 rpm static - WoW! sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to >> absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT! >> >> Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison of >> port timing information from Paul Yaw >> You can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater >> than the turbo 13B. So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since ave= rage >> amount of time the PP intake is open longer to the atmosphere for the s= ame >> RPM as a turbo 13B, that the intake manifold pressure would be higher f= or >> the same rpm. So what you are seeing just may well be "normal" for a PP >> port. >> >> But then I don't own and have no experience with a PP. >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B >> >> IO 32=B0 ATDC >> IC 50=B0 ABDC >> EO 71=B0 BBDC >> EC 48=B0 ATDC Mazda Factory Peripheral Port >> >> IO 86=B0 BTDC >> IC 75=B0 ABDC >> EO 73=B0 BBDC >> EC 65=B0 ATDC >> >> >> >> >> >> A >> >> >> >> ASThis site is meant to give information >> >> *From:* Mark Steitle >> *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from >> David) >> >> OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. >> >> As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it >> should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert f= rom >> the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited succes= s, >> it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and >> possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out. I = had >> trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. >> >> About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to >> say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. = I >> sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the >> latest version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it w= ould >> perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it started on= the >> third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not a= t >> "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the instructions in the man= ual, >> first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# >> injectors. Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. = A >> little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idli= ng >> down around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The >> exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chil= ls >> up your leg. ;-0 >> >> Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost >> do 7000 rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country = town >> and this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my engin= e >> all over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was = time >> to fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. There was a >> 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smoot= h. >> I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At 3500 msl I heade= d >> east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings. Up and = down >> the scale, fine-tuning each address. She was running like a fine Swiss >> watch, or to put it another way, like a rotary should. >> >> Issues: >> 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP a= t >> idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check to = make >> sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for >> leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under t= hese >> circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am using = a >> slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports. >> So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in = the >> rotor housings (no oil injection pump). Could this account for the unus= ual >> MAP readings? I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the atmospher= e, I >> can't measure MAP from there. I think there are others that use this sc= heme >> with success. >> 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop >> rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the hig= her >> rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will gradually >> start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be tuning, o= r >> intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop. Or, ma= ybe >> the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through t= he >> air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 15= 00 >> rpm on tap but can't use it. >> >> 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is = a >> new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll try >> adjusting the regulator (again). >> >> All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort >> out though. >> >> Mark S. >> Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B >> Lockhart, TX >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: >> >>> Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make >>> sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a swe= et >>> red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. David. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com >>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) >>> >>> Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to >>> read about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the >>> list! Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching foo= tball >>> all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) >>> >>> Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection >>> prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment! >>> Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the list! :) >>> >>> Doug >>> >> >> > --0015174c3d8aaddbc904951a9e0c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
=A0
You must be psychic as=A0you answered my question even before I asked = it!=A0 I was wondering why when in track mode that I was seeing 47-50=A0MCT= addresses.=A0 It later dawned on me that with the MAP being > 13"= =A0it was causing the EC-2 to jump to the intermediate table even though th= e rpm's were below 2400.=A0 I haven't adjusted Mode 7 as yet.=A0=A0= Is this something that=A0you would recommend for my situation?=A0
=A0
Also, I did adjust the staging point up to 18.5".=A0 I didn't= think it should be running on both primary and secondary injectors at idle= .=A0
=A0
It still sputters when=A0increasing the throttle=A0from idle.=A0 I'= ;ll worry about that later.
=A0
Mark
=A0
=A0

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Tracy <tracy@rotaryaviat= ion.com> wrote:
I agree with Ed.=A0 Between that= and the intake chamber point where you get your manifold pressure, it coul= d be normal.=A0 This was the one of the reasons I had to add the RPM map ta= ble to the EC2/3.=A0 When the engine is below about 2500 RPM, the EC2/3 use= s the RPM table between adr. 0 and 31 to adjust the mixture.=A0 Some engine= configurations will idle at the same MP as they could cruise at.=A0 I freq= uently cruise around at 17" Hg when I'm just sight seeing but the = rpm is up around 4100 so it is no longer in the same MAP table..

Note that you might have to adjust the RPM table MP threshold (Mode 7 w= ith Cold Start ON) for extreme examples like this because I think the defau= lt threshold is about 13.5" Hg.=A0=A0=A0 =A0 The EC2/3 will switch to = the MP MAP table above this threshold even if the RPM is below the RPM thre= shold.

Tracy

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
7000 rpm static - WoW!=A0 sounds like not enough = pitch in the prop to absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT!
=A0
Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle= - here is a comparison=A0 of port timing information from Paul Yaw<= /div>
You can see that the total open time of the PP is= considerable greater than the turbo 13B.=A0 So for a given rpm, I would co= nclude that since average amount of time =A0the PP intake is open longer to= the atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B, =A0that the intake manifol= d pressure would be higher for the same rpm.=A0 So what you are seeing just= may well be "normal" for a PP port.
=A0
But then I don't own and have no experience w= ith a PP.
=A0
Ed
=A0
=A0=20

=A0

Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B

IO 32=B0 ATDC
IC 50=B0 ABDC
EO 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC =

Mazda Factory Peripheral Port

IO 86=B0 BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 BBDC<= br>EC 65=B0 ATDC

=A0

=A0

A

=A0

ASThis site is meant to give info= rmation


Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...= (from David)

OK, Doug,=A0I'll post my weekend update.=A0
=A0
As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as = it should.=A0 Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert= from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.=A0 While I did have limited s= uccess, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, a= nd possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out.=A0 = I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm.=A0
=A0
About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy = to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration.= =A0=A0I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to= the latest version.=A0=A0I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see ho= w it would perform.=A0 I installed the upgraded=A0EC-2 on Saturday.=A0=A0Ye= a, it started on the third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixt= ure knob was not at "12=A0O'clock", it ran very smooth.=A0 Fo= llowing the instructions in the manual, first thing I did was to=A0adjust= =A0Mode 3=A0to=A0compensate for my larger 60# injectors.=A0 Now it was runn= ing really well in the upper rpm/map ranges.=A0 A little adjusting of the l= ower addresses using=A0Mode 1=A0& 9 and=A0it was idling down=A0around 1= 500 rpm.=A0 (Keep in mind that this is a=A0p-port motor.)=A0=A0The exhaust = tone at low idle is hard to describe...it=A0is enough to send chills up you= r leg.=A0 ;-0=A0
=A0
Sunday, after a=A0some more tuning, I got it to where it would=A0almos= t do=A07000 rpm static.=A0 (Keep in mind that=A0Lockhart, TX is a small cou= ntry town and this was Sunday morning.=A0 You could probably hear me tuning= my engine all over town.)=A0 Confident that it would stay running, I decid= ed it was time to fly.=A0=A0It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could b= e.=A0=A0There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, bu= t the air=A0was silky smooth.=A0 I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I= circled.=A0 At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at d= ifferent MAP settings.=A0 Up and down the scale,=A0fine-tuning each address= .=A0 She was running like=A0a fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way, l= ike a rotary should.=A0=A0
=A0
Issues:=A0
1)=A0 MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the= =A0MAP at idle is reading 17.4".=A0 Next trip to the airport I will do= uble-check to make sure that=A0I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 prope= rly,=A0and check for leaks elsewhere.=A0 It is amazing that it=A0idles as w= ell as it does under these circumstances.=A0=A0Note that rather than using = a throttle body,=A0I am using a slide-throttle which is located=A0just a fe= w inches from the intake ports.=A0 So,=A0the vacuum lines are plugged into = the unused oil injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil injection pump= ).=A0=A0Could this=A0account for the=A0unusual MAP readings?=A0 I do have a= plenum, but since=A0it is open to the atmosphere, I can't=A0measure MA= P from there.=A0 I think there are others that use this scheme with success= .=A0
2)=A0Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop= rpm.=A0=A0I can=A0set=A0the prop=A0higher and=A0get a=A0higher engine rpm,= but the=A0higher rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds.=A0 The spee= d=A0will gradually start=A0bleeding off.=A0 Not sure why this is happening.= =A0 Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or=A0just a characteristic o= f the M/T prop.=A0=A0Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepowe= r to push the airframe through the air any faster.=A0 It is annoying though= , knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it.
=A0
3) Alternator - the voltage reading on=A0main alternator is low.=A0 Th= is is a new alternator which has been converted to external regulator.=A0 I= 'll try adjusting the regulator (again).=A0
=A0
All in all, a very successful weekend.=A0 As usual, more=A0issues to s= ort out though.=A0
=A0
Mark S.
Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B
Lockhart, TX
=A0
=A0

=A0
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaw= ay1@comcast.net> wrote:
Rodge= r that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure all d= ucks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red win= e marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know.=A0 David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in aircraf= t" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are = those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!=A0 I'm still hopin= g=A0to read=A0about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on= the list!=A0=A0Surely all our aviators weren't=A0just sitting around w= atching football all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!!=A0=A0=A0:)=A0=A0
=A0
Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspectio= n prior to first flight!=A0 Take your time, be safe, and enjoy=A0the moment= !=A0 Then=A0post some pictures / data of the big event on the list!=A0 :)= =A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0
Doug

=


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