X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com ([209.85.215.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4579744 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:19:39 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ewy4 with SMTP id 4so1225134ewy.25 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:19:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=IBlIc4vZoF05ytknLkyb2DwHkpT81Ag3ep9rz5p5ZRw=; b=fuTth9vCx6jOs8S6ziPzuHi2FbsQo6zu6CUVSu8pNAcC1J1vZ5TMKIIsaTpI49+Qs/ yEvlTP3udjNhka+TG39NTfcjtSFQBTBLP/UKNzcIB/JRdjapAG8pIiei3dzYpXmVDbqh NTGaoJXumzENa7yvmdT66zVvpXEiu0Al3FW0M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=wNqDw2tnkNtLu651Y5Kh6ZIxfAoWtMeuhM5+cWF8jHaU/9orfjx+MtbwXYEWNKFj94 xHFgAXiipTjTXX/Ic5wp+IjsMdXKlnBlwzuVRNRMS/YPLlFCRHtNuHhDW3HMQWEgfa1M w2i0jhptKVXVf1Od2P6FqvCH7x/7an5i7czZI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.17.139 with SMTP id s11mr4818357eba.51.1289837943701; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.36.17 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:19:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 10:19:03 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3d6a73c327049519cca9 --0015174c3d6a73c327049519cca9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Well, I would usually settle for somewhere around 2300 rpm as it got too "ratty" below that RPM. I didn't mention it in my earlier post, but I had borrowed Bob Darrah's EC-2 to run while mine was being re-worked . Bob's EC-2 didn't have the injector snubbers, and it had not been upgraded since 2006. Tracy was surprised that it ran as well as it did. However, while not finely tuned, it did run better than my unit. Yes, I suppose I'll have to record a ground run, just for the fun of it, an= d to help us through the long winter months ahead. Stay tuned (no pun intended). Mark On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer wrote: > Mark, > What was your idle MP before the EC2 update ?...............Do you ha= ve > any video with > sounds of that "Leg Chilling" 20B at idle ?.................I could use a > thrill !!.................<:) > > > > Kelly Troyer > *"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)* > > "13B ROTARY"_ Engine > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > "MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > "TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ed Anderson > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from > David) > > 7000 rpm static - WoW! sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to absor= b > the power - tough situation to be in - NOT! > > Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison of > port timing information from Paul Yaw > You can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater th= an > the turbo 13B. So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since average > amount of time the PP intake is open longer to the atmosphere for the sa= me > RPM as a turbo 13B, that the intake manifold pressure would be higher fo= r > the same rpm. So what you are seeing just may well be "normal" for a PP > port. > > But then I don't own and have no experience with a PP. > > Ed > > > > > Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B > > IO 32=B0 ATDC > IC 50=B0 ABDC > EO 71=B0 BBDC > EC 48=B0 ATDC Mazda Factory Peripheral Port > > IO 86=B0 BTDC > IC 75=B0 ABDC > EO 73=B0 BBDC > EC 65=B0 ATDC > > > > > > A > > > > ASThis site is meant to give information > > *From:* Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from > David) > > OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. > > As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it > should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert fr= om > the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited success= , > it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and > possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out. I h= ad > trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. > > About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to > say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. = I > sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to the > latest version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how it wo= uld > perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it started on = the > third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture knob was not at > "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the instructions in the manu= al, > first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60# > injectors. Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map ranges. = A > little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idlin= g > down around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind that this is a p-port motor.) The > exhaust tone at low idle is hard to describe...it is enough to send chill= s > up your leg. ;-0 > > Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do 70= 00 > rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and > this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my engine all > over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time = to > fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. There was a 5000= ' > ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was silky smooth. I f= lew > a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At 3500 msl I headed east a= nd > did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP settings. Up and down the > scale, fine-tuning each address. She was running like a fine Swiss watch= , > or to put it another way, like a rotary should. > > Issues: > 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP at > idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check to m= ake > sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and check for > leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it does under th= ese > circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle body, I am using a > slide-throttle which is located just a few inches from the intake ports. > So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in t= he > rotor housings (no oil injection pump). Could this account for the unusu= al > MAP readings? I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the atmosphere= , I > can't measure MAP from there. I think there are others that use this sch= eme > with success. > 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop > rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the high= er > rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will gradually > start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be tuning, or > intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T prop. Or, may= be > the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through th= e > air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 150= 0 > rpm on tap but can't use it. > > 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is a > new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll try > adjusting the regulator (again). > > All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort ou= t > though. > > Mark S. > Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B > Lockhart, TX > > > > > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: > >> Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make >> sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a swee= t >> red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. David. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) >> >> Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to >> read about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the >> list! Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching foot= ball >> all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) >> >> Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspection >> prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy the moment! >> Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the list! :) >> >> Doug >> > > --0015174c3d6a73c327049519cca9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,
=A0
Well, I would usually settle for somewhere=A0around=A02300 rpm as it= =A0got too "ratty" below that RPM.=A0 I didn't=A0mention it i= n my earlier post, but I had borrowed Bob Darrah's EC-2 to run while mi= ne was being re-worked .=A0 Bob's EC-2 didn't have the injector snu= bbers, and it had not been upgraded since 2006.=A0 Tracy was surprised that= it ran as well as it did.=A0 However, while not finely tuned, it did run b= etter than my unit.=A0
=A0
Yes, I suppose I'll have to=A0record a ground run, just for the fu= n of it, and to help us through the long winter months ahead.=A0 Stay tuned= (no pun intended).=A0
=A0
Mark

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>= ; wrote:
Mark,
=A0=A0=A0 What was your idle MP before the EC2 update ?...............= Do you have any=A0video with
sounds of that "Leg=A0Chilling" 20B at idle=A0?.............= ....I could use a thrill !!.................<:)
=A0
=A0

Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)

"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"= MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo


<= br>
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com>=20

To: R= otary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 8:39:02 A= M=20

Subject:<= /b> [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)
<= /div>

7000 rpm static - WoW!=A0 sounds like not enough = pitch in the prop to absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT!
=A0
Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle= - here is a comparison=A0 of port timing information from Paul Yaw<= /div>
You can see that the total open time of the PP is= considerable greater than the turbo 13B.=A0 So for a given rpm, I would co= nclude that since average amount of time =A0the PP intake is open longer to= the atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B, =A0that the intake manifol= d pressure would be higher for the same rpm.=A0 So what you are seeing just= may well be "normal" for a PP port.
=A0
But then I don't own and have no experience w= ith a PP.
=A0
Ed
=A0
=A0=20

=A0

Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B

IO 32=B0 ATDC
IC 50=B0 ABDC
EO 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC =

Mazda Factory Peripheral Port

IO 86=B0 BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 BBDC<= br>EC 65=B0 ATDC

=A0

=A0

A

=A0

ASThis site is meant to give info= rmation


Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...= (from David)

OK, Doug,=A0I'll post my weekend update.=A0
=A0
As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as = it should.=A0 Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert= from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.=A0 While I did have limited s= uccess, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, a= nd possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out.=A0 = I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm.=A0
=A0
About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy = to say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration.= =A0=A0I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to= the latest version.=A0=A0I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see ho= w it would perform.=A0 I installed the upgraded=A0EC-2 on Saturday.=A0=A0Ye= a, it started on the third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixt= ure knob was not at "12=A0O'clock", it ran very smooth.=A0 Fo= llowing the instructions in the manual, first thing I did was to=A0adjust= =A0Mode 3=A0to=A0compensate for my larger 60# injectors.=A0 Now it was runn= ing really well in the upper rpm/map ranges.=A0 A little adjusting of the l= ower addresses using=A0Mode 1=A0& 9 and=A0it was idling down=A0around 1= 500 rpm.=A0 (Keep in mind that this is a=A0p-port motor.)=A0=A0The exhaust = tone at low idle is hard to describe...it=A0is enough to send chills up you= r leg.=A0 ;-0=A0
=A0
Sunday, after a=A0some more tuning, I got it to where it would=A0almos= t do=A07000 rpm static.=A0 (Keep in mind that=A0Lockhart, TX is a small cou= ntry town and this was Sunday morning.=A0 You could probably hear me tuning= my engine all over town.)=A0 Confident that it would stay running, I decid= ed it was time to fly.=A0=A0It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could b= e.=A0=A0There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, bu= t the air=A0was silky smooth.=A0 I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I= circled.=A0 At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at d= ifferent MAP settings.=A0 Up and down the scale,=A0fine-tuning each address= .=A0 She was running like=A0a fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way, l= ike a rotary should.=A0=A0
=A0
Issues:=A0
1)=A0 MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the= =A0MAP at idle is reading 17.4".=A0 Next trip to the airport I will do= uble-check to make sure that=A0I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 prope= rly,=A0and check for leaks elsewhere.=A0 It is amazing that it=A0idles as w= ell as it does under these circumstances.=A0=A0Note that rather than using = a throttle body,=A0I am using a slide-throttle which is located=A0just a fe= w inches from the intake ports.=A0 So,=A0the vacuum lines are plugged into = the unused oil injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil injection pump= ).=A0=A0Could this=A0account for the=A0unusual MAP readings?=A0 I do have a= plenum, but since=A0it is open to the atmosphere, I can't=A0measure MA= P from there.=A0 I think there are others that use this scheme with success= .=A0
2)=A0Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop= rpm.=A0=A0I can=A0set=A0the prop=A0higher and=A0get a=A0higher engine rpm,= but the=A0higher rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds.=A0 The spee= d=A0will gradually start=A0bleeding off.=A0 Not sure why this is happening.= =A0 Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or=A0just a characteristic o= f the M/T prop.=A0=A0Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepowe= r to push the airframe through the air any faster.=A0 It is annoying though= , knowing that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it.
=A0
3) Alternator - the voltage reading on=A0main alternator is low.=A0 Th= is is a new alternator which has been converted to external regulator.=A0 I= 'll try adjusting the regulator (again).=A0
=A0
All in all, a very successful weekend.=A0 As usual, more=A0issues to s= ort out though.=A0
=A0
Mark S.
Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B
Lockhart, TX
=A0
=A0

=A0
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net> wrote:
Rodger t= hat Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure all duck= s in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wine m= arinade is the secret to good tender duck you know.=A0 David.
----- Original Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary = motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are = those 304 Stainless staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!=A0 I'm still hopin= g=A0to read=A0about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on= the list!=A0=A0Surely all our aviators weren't=A0just sitting around w= atching football all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!!=A0=A0=A0:)=A0=A0
=A0
Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final inspectio= n prior to first flight!=A0 Take your time, be safe, and enjoy=A0the moment= !=A0 Then=A0post some pictures / data of the big event on the list!=A0 :)= =A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0
Doug

=

--0015174c3d6a73c327049519cca9--