X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4579625 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:39:42 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=uESSSoDEku2quKX/oFXS2Smn5+55LTFcWFr5T5T8nFs= c=1 sm=0 a=Xs-djX7pKWEA:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:17 a=C_IRinGWAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=jbGuDuXkSU8botw9UqUA:9 a=z1wHUtqPbb1jdHF-OYAA:7 a=CKuDWE96hqc8wsCuhQ6iLw9QLA8A:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=DAVXDncPST5-dZgI:21 a=D6QLrwQPr_Gc1SSW:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Z7qaesU0bVxT33uN1JYA:9 a=pEnDXJZXrXj7Yx2QLe8A:7 a=iLBmTcVNhiVyaD9A6eeBeJ0-6cMA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=rPkcCx1H5rrOSfN0dPC7kw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.167.5 Received: from [174.110.167.5] ([174.110.167.5:56275] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 46/B7-07087-A0641EC4; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:39:06 +0000 Message-ID: <455B18D9EE304A82B627180C1988DD61@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from David) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:39:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01CB84A8.EFDBE950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01CB84A8.EFDBE950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 7000 rpm static - WoW! sounds like not enough pitch in the prop to = absorb the power - tough situation to be in - NOT! Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - here is a comparison of = port timing information from Paul Yaw You can see that the total open time of the PP is considerable greater = than the turbo 13B. So for a given rpm, I would conclude that since = average amount of time the PP intake is open longer to the atmosphere = for the same RPM as a turbo 13B, that the intake manifold pressure = would be higher for the same rpm. So what you are seeing just may well = be "normal" for a PP port. But then I don't own and have no experience with a PP. Ed =20 Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B IO 32=B0 ATDC IC 50=B0 ABDC EO 71=B0 BBDC EC 48=B0 ATDC=20 Mazda Factory Peripheral Port IO 86=B0 BTDC IC 75=B0 ABDC EO 73=B0 BBDC EC 65=B0 ATDC=20 A ASThis site is meant to give information From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. =20 As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run as it = should. Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to convert = from the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS. While I did have limited = success, it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS = sensor, and possibly some other issues that I am not smart enough to = figure out. I had trouble getting it to run above 5800 rpm. =20 About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called Tracy to = say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original configuration. = I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and upgraded the software to = the latest version. I got it back on Friday and was anxious to see how = it would perform. I installed the upgraded EC-2 on Saturday. Yea, it = started on the third prop blade and ran quite well, although the Mixture = knob was not at "12 O'clock", it ran very smooth. Following the = instructions in the manual, first thing I did was to adjust Mode 3 to = compensate for my larger 60# injectors. Now it was running really well = in the upper rpm/map ranges. A little adjusting of the lower addresses = using Mode 1 & 9 and it was idling down around 1500 rpm. (Keep in mind = that this is a p-port motor.) The exhaust tone at low idle is hard to = describe...it is enough to send chills up your leg. ;-0 =20 Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it would almost do = 7000 rpm static. (Keep in mind that Lockhart, TX is a small country = town and this was Sunday morning. You could probably hear me tuning my = engine all over town.) Confident that it would stay running, I decided = it was time to fly. It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could be. = There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, but the air was = silky smooth. I flew a couple of patterns, climbing as I circled. At = 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 at different MAP = settings. Up and down the scale, fine-tuning each address. She was = running like a fine Swiss watch, or to put it another way, like a rotary = should. =20 Issues: =20 1) MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as the MAP = at idle is reading 17.4". Next trip to the airport I will double-check = to make sure that I got both lines plugged into the EC-2 properly, and = check for leaks elsewhere. It is amazing that it idles as well as it = does under these circumstances. Note that rather than using a throttle = body, I am using a slide-throttle which is located just a few inches = from the intake ports. So, the vacuum lines are plugged into the unused = oil injection ports in the rotor housings (no oil injection pump). = Could this account for the unusual MAP readings? I do have a plenum, = but since it is open to the atmosphere, I can't measure MAP from there. = I think there are others that use this scheme with success. =20 2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around 2000-2100 prop = rpm. I can set the prop higher and get a higher engine rpm, but the = higher rpm doesn't translate into higher speeds. The speed will = gradually start bleeding off. Not sure why this is happening. Could be = tuning, or intake/exhaust design, or just a characteristic of the M/T = prop. Or, maybe the engine isn't making enough horsepower to push the = airframe through the air any faster. It is annoying though, knowing = that you have another 1500 rpm on tap but can't use it. 3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is low. This is = a new alternator which has been converted to external regulator. I'll = try adjusting the regulator (again). =20 All in all, a very successful weekend. As usual, more issues to sort = out though. =20 Mark S. Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B Lockhart, TX =20 On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, wrote: Rodger that Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make = sure all ducks in a row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a = sweet red wine marinade is the secret to good tender duck you know. = David. ----- Original Message ----- From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 Stainless staples...(from = David) Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?! I'm still hoping to read = about some flying exploits from this weekend, from someone on the list! = Surely all our aviators weren't just sitting around watching football = all day like us gimpy / DNIF guys!!!! :) =20 Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final = inspection prior to first flight! Take your time, be safe, and enjoy = the moment! Then post some pictures / data of the big event on the = list! :) =20 Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01CB84A8.EFDBE950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
7000 rpm static - WoW!  sounds like not = enough pitch=20 in the prop to absorb the power - tough situation to be in - = NOT!
 
Regarding your 17" manifold pressure at idle - = here is a=20 comparison  of port timing information from Paul Yaw
You can see that the total open time of the PP = is=20 considerable greater than the turbo 13B.  So for a given rpm, I = would=20 conclude that since average amount of time  the PP intake is open = longer to=20 the atmosphere for the same RPM as a turbo 13B,  that the intake = manifold=20 pressure would be higher for the same rpm.  So what you are seeing = just may=20 well be "normal" for a PP port.
 
But then I don't own and have no experience with = a=20 PP.
 
Ed
 
 =20

 

Second and Third Generation Turbo 13B

IO = 32=B0 ATDC
IC=20 50=B0 ABDC
EO 71=B0 BBDC
EC 48=B0 ATDC

Mazda Factory Peripheral Port

IO 86=B0 BTDC
IC 75=B0 ABDC
EO 73=B0 = BBDC
EC 65=B0 ATDC=20

 

 

A

 

ASThis site is meant to give = information


From: Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:09 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey are those 304 Stainless = staples...(from=20 David)

OK, Doug, I'll post my weekend update. 
 
As some of you may know, I have had troubles getting my 20B to run = as it=20 should.  Problems started about 3 years back when I decided to = convert from=20 the stock CAS to the Renesis style CAS.  While I did have limited = success,=20 it was very sensitive to alignment and air gap of the CAS sensor, and = possibly=20 some other issues that I am not smart enough to figure out.  I had = trouble=20 getting it to run above 5800 rpm. 
 
About a month ago I decided that enough was enough and I called = Tracy to=20 say that I wanted my EC-2 converted back to the original=20 configuration.  I sent it back to Tracy who made the mod and = upgraded=20 the software to the latest version.  I got it back on Friday = and was=20 anxious to see how it would perform.  I installed the = upgraded EC-2 on=20 Saturday.  Yea, it started on the third prop blade and ran = quite well,=20 although the Mixture knob was not at "12 O'clock", it ran very=20 smooth.  Following the instructions in the manual, first thing I = did was=20 to adjust Mode 3 to compensate for my larger 60#=20 injectors.  Now it was running really well in the upper rpm/map=20 ranges.  A little adjusting of the lower addresses using Mode=20 1 & 9 and it was idling down around 1500 rpm.  = (Keep in=20 mind that this is a p-port motor.)  The exhaust tone at = low idle=20 is hard to describe...it is enough to send chills up your = leg. =20 ;-0 
 
Sunday, after a some more tuning, I got it to where it=20 would almost do 7000 rpm static.  (Keep in mind=20 that Lockhart, TX is a small country town and this was Sunday=20 morning.  You could probably hear me tuning my engine all over = town.) =20 Confident that it would stay running, I decided it was time to=20 fly.  It climbed out at 6700 rpm as smooth as could=20 be.  There was a 5000' ceiling, so I couldn't climb too high, = but the=20 air was silky smooth.  I flew a couple of patterns, climbing = as I=20 circled.  At 3500 msl I headed east and did some tuning with Mode 9 = at=20 different MAP settings.  Up and down the scale, fine-tuning = each=20 address.  She was running like a fine Swiss watch, or to put = it=20 another way, like a rotary should.  
 
Issues: 
1)  MAP Readings - It appears that I may have a vacuum leak as = the MAP at idle is reading 17.4".  Next trip to the airport I = will=20 double-check to make sure that I got both lines plugged into the = EC-2=20 properly, and check for leaks elsewhere.  It is amazing that=20 it idles as well as it does under these = circumstances.  Note that=20 rather than using a throttle body, I am using a slide-throttle = which is=20 located just a few inches from the intake ports.  So, the = vacuum=20 lines are plugged into the unused oil injection ports in the rotor = housings (no=20 oil injection pump).  Could this account for = the unusual MAP=20 readings?  I do have a plenum, but since it is open to the = atmosphere,=20 I can't measure MAP from there.  I think there are others that = use=20 this scheme with success. 
2) Performance - I seem to hit a speed wall at around = 2000-2100 prop=20 rpm.  I can set the prop higher and get=20 a higher engine rpm, but the higher rpm doesn't translate into = higher=20 speeds.  The speed will gradually start bleeding = off.  Not=20 sure why this is happening.  Could be tuning, or intake/exhaust = design,=20 or just a characteristic of the M/T prop.  Or, maybe the = engine=20 isn't making enough horsepower to push the airframe through the air any=20 faster.  It is annoying though, knowing that you have another 1500 = rpm on=20 tap but can't use it.
 
3) Alternator - the voltage reading on main alternator is = low. =20 This is a new alternator which has been converted to external = regulator. =20 I'll try adjusting the regulator (again). 
 
All in all, a very successful weekend.  As usual, = more issues to=20 sort out though. 
 
Mark S.
Lancair ES, N/A P-port 20B
Lockhart, TX
 
 

 
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net>=20 wrote:
Rodger that=20 Doug, I just went through all the paperwork again to make sure all = ducks in a=20 row, then shot one of the ducks & had dinner, a sweet red wine = marinade is=20 the secret to good tender duck you know.  David.
----- = Original=20 Message -----
From: DLOMHEIM@aol.com
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, = November=20 14, 2010 7:09:45 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hey are those 304 = Stainless=20 staples...(from David)

Na...gotta be 321...don't you think David?!  I'm still=20 hoping to read about some flying exploits from this weekend, = from=20 someone on the list!  Surely all our aviators = weren't just=20 sitting around watching football all day like us gimpy / DNIF=20 guys!!!!   :)  
 
Mucho congrats on getting your project to the point of final = inspection=20 prior to first flight!  Take your time, be safe, and = enjoy the=20 moment!  Then post some pictures / data of the big event on = the=20 list!  :)    
 
=
Doug

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