X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.9) with ESMTP id 4486349 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:43:21 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) by FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([::1]) with mapi; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:42:33 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Ras Thread-Topic: Ras Thread-Index: AQHLYAYZoI3cHz+9sUiiGokC1Tn5MA== Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:42:32 +0000 Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A05EE@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A05EEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A05EEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the input. I have tried a different filter (both were B&N) and I have used a mechanica= l sensor. However, it was placed where the electronic sensor is (as well a= s after the PSRU and out the top of the engine going to the turbo), not rig= ht after where the oil leaves the engine. The usual sensor location in min= e is right after the primary cooler. i have been checking the hoses, but h= ave not completed this task but so far have been clear of obstructions. If= I tear down the engine, I will likely have the hoses pressure tested by a = friend in the business...I have seen the flap made by the Earls fittings. = TIA ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:28 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, Not certain where you have your oil pressure sensor, but on my old 13B it i= s after the filter and oil cooler - actually its on the aluminum block. T= he point is my pressure sensor is after all of the components in the coolin= g system. I suspect your's is as well. So assuming your oil pump is OK here is what we have remaining. 1. There is an "O" ring between the aluminum front cover and the iron hous= ing (unless it has been removed and some substitute is there). If this get= s pushed out the oil pressure tyically drop down to around 20-30 psi at max= rpm). It will generally permit some oil to flow. 2. If the filter becomes clogged then most oil filters have a high pressur= e by-pass which permits oil to flow even thought it will not be filtered (b= etter some dirty oil rather than a fried main bearing) 3. Hoses that have "Earls" type aluminum fittings have been know to shave a= rubber flap when being installed and could have gotten into a position to = block flow. You keep remarking that the oil flows to the filter but not past it - even = when you filled the filter with oil. That would cause me to try replacing = that filter with a different one. Oil filters have been know to have their= internals collapse and block flow. Unlikely - but you are looking for any= possibility to preclude tearing into the engine so don't over look this on= e. As several have suggested you really need to have a mechanical pressure gau= ge to see what your oil pressure is. You may have to cook up some An fitti= ngs to block the oil flow before it gets to the filter and insert a pressur= e fitting and gauge at that point. As long as your engine does not start h= ave no oil flowing for few revolutions should not hurt your bearings - take= a reading - if pressure doesn't come up with the flow blocked by your meas= uring device then you have an internal problem. Could be the "O" ring, cou= ld be the keys in the pump (I had that happen to me once - flew for 10 hour= s before the clamping nut on the oil shaft let go and pressure dropped duri= ng taxi - fortunately), could be the pump, could be your oil pick up. Good luck Ed From: Chris Barber Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually use at= home. Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use three post = that should have been one. I have NOT had the engine apart. It has about 45 hours on it since I perfo= rmed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end housings, rebui= ld kit...old rotors and e-shaft). It had been running damn good, good enou= gh that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first flight a= ttempt. The RPM indicator drop was a residual issue with the EM2 I was wor= king on trying to tie up loose ends. As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening and wa= tching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my RPM = drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pressure reading. I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into the re= mote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the coolers,= however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to move oil out of the = filter. I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred. Perhaps I have= not cranked the engine long enough to move it through the filter as it was= getting dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs and was concerned abo= ut damaging the internals and PSRU. Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the plug= s installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but does no= t seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only cranking and not = running. Also, since I had no oil flow, I was concerned about cranking it = without oil getting to the engine and PSRU. I hope to get out to the hanga= r later today and continue my checks with the plugs removed. I am not too = hopeful though, it seems as if it must be an internal issue, especially sin= ce the mechanical gauges I hooked up also showed low/no pressure. I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot installed o= n top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up. However, I have g= otten pretty good and uninstalling and reinstalling...(of course, apparentl= y not good enough to not have a problem). The process has gotten much fast= er as I have become more methodical. Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retaining cli= ps. While something like that could certainly be the problem, I am certain= I addressed these very items, even though possibly not well enough. If yo= u would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but now the evidence = will tell. I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet to fin= d any. Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine in a stream= but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has not made = it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain. Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with simple= cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" time cranking? Yeah, gras= ping at straws...but I am trying to get use to the idea of pulling the engi= ne. Heavy sigh. Thanks, Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Chris, Did you just have your engine apart? If so, did you have oil pressure afte= r that? Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes t= o the cooler. Did you check to see if oil is coming from the first opening= after the pump? If it is not, the problem is inside the engine, if oil is= coming from the pump, the problem is outside the engine. Cooler, filter, h= ose, etc, don=92t tear it down unless you have to. If you didn=92t use a = mandrel when you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the inside = of the hose blocking the oil flow. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Oh, and maybe this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I b= e looking for. Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is n= ot that obvious, where do I need to focus. The pressure gage?? The pump?? = Something else?? Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Geeesh...the mouse froze again. To continue, I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote = filter mount. So, I had some flow. I then went to the end of the hoses wh= ere it re-enters the engine after flowing through the two oil coolers. Wel= l, here there was no joy. No oil coming out. I did refill the filter befo= re I reinstalled it and cranked the engine for quite a while to no avail. = Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose connections past the filter and st= ill no flow when cranking. Finally, I checked all the way back to the filt= er outlet and no oil would come out. I changed to a different filter and s= till no flow from out of the filter. So, I have some flow....not a lot int= o the filter buy none out. I HATE the idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil = pump and pressure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to check at th= is point. When I return tomorrow, I will remove the plugs to take some of = the stress off the starter and see if I get flow out of the filter. I am = also concerned now that I have been cranking the system long enough that so= me important parts are not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PS= RU etc. If I would have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never k= nown there was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and cont= inued to do so when I started it to test my pressure after discovering the = problems. Hopefully this will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru type= s on the list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics. Please, what else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill= set. Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like???? Thanks, as always. Chris Barber Houston ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss Aggg. I need a new computer. The mouse froze and the message sent prematur= ly. Anyway, I rechecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all ch= ecked fine. Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I st= ill saw no pressure. Next, I hooked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three different= locations in the oil system, started the engine three times very briefly. = Each time the engin started and seemed to run fine for the VERY short time= I allowed it to run. No pressure reading on two of the test points, and a= bout 6psi on the reading from the turbor engine outlet to the turbo. Ok, I unscrewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil c= omes out of the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine. I h= ooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the engine and cranked the en= gie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = Chris Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:42 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pressure Loss In the never ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I w= as working on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to = no avail). As I was sitting on the ramp at idle for a few minutes, focusin= g on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Pressure and noted it was flashing= as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pressure (4 or 5 psi). I instan= tly shut down the engine. The engine appeared to be running fine before I shut it down. I checked th= e wire to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine. I also checked = the continutiy of the wire to the sensor and it was good. I started the en= gine again and it started fine and seem to run fine, however, the OP did no= t kick in so I shut it down again --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D30326A05EEFCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the input.
 
I have tried a different filter (both were B&N) = ;and I have used a mechanical sensor.  However, it was placed where th= e electronic sensor is (as well as after the PSRU and ou= t the top of the engine going to the turbo), not right after where the oil leaves the engine.  The usual sensor location in = mine is right after the primary cooler.  i have bee= n checking the hoses, but have not completed this task but so far have been= clear of obstructions.  If I tear down the engine, I will likely have the hoses pressure tested by a friend in the business..= .I have seen the flap made by the Earls fittings.  TIA
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of Ed Anderson [eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:28 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Chris,
 
Not certain where you have your oil pressure sens= or, but on my old 13B it is after the filter and oil cooler - actually its = on the aluminum block.   The point is my pressure sensor is = after all of the components in the cooling system.  I suspect your's is as well. 
 
So assuming your oil pump is OK here is what we h= ave remaining.
 
1.  There is an "O" ring between t= he aluminum front cover and the iron housing (unless it has been = removed and some substitute is there).  If this gets pushed out the oi= l pressure tyically drop down to around 20-30 psi at max rpm).  I= t will generally permit some oil to flow.
2.  If the filter becomes clogged then most = oil filters have a high pressure by-pass which permits oil to flow even tho= ught it will not be filtered (better some dirty oil rather than a fried mai= n bearing)
3. Hoses that have "Earls" type al= uminum fittings have been know to shave a rubber flap when being installed = and could have gotten into a position to block flow.
 
You keep remarking that the oil flows to the filt= er but not past it - even when you filled the filter with oil.  That w= ould cause me to try replacing that filter with a different one.  Oil = filters have been know to have their internals collapse and block flow.  Unlikely - but you are looking for any poss= ibility to preclude tearing into the engine so don't over look this one.
 
As several have suggested you really need to have= a mechanical pressure gauge to see what your oil pressure is.  You ma= y have to cook up some An fittings to block the oil flow before it gets to = the filter and insert a pressure fitting and gauge at that point.  As long as your engine does not start have = no oil flowing for few revolutions should not hurt your bearings - take a r= eading - if pressure doesn't come up with the flow blocked by your measurin= g device then you have an internal problem.  Could be the "O" ring, could be the keys in the pump (I had that= happen to me once - flew for 10 hours before the clamping nut on the oil s= haft let go and pressure dropped during taxi - fortunately), could be the p= ump, could be your oil pick up.
 
Good luck
 
Ed

Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:43 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Sorry, I have had some major issues with notebook computer I usually u= se at home.  Most recently with the mouse freezing, so, I had to use t= hree post that should have been one.
 
I have NOT had the engine apart.  It has about 45 hours on it sin= ce I performed the latest rebuild using mostly new parts (rotor & end h= ousings, rebuild kit...old rotors and e-shaft).  It had been running d= amn good, good enough that I thought I was really close to the DAR sign off and first flight attempt.  The RPM indicato= r drop was a residual issue with the EM2 I was work= ing on trying to tie up loose ends.
 
As I mentioned, I would have not had noticed an issue just listening a= nd watching the engine, but while I was trying (unsuccessfully) to solve my= RPM drop reading problem I noted the OP flashing and the low pre= ssure reading.
 
I am getting some oil coming out of the front of the engine and into t= he remote oil filter which is located between the engine outlet and the coo= lers, however, I have apparently not had enough pressure to mov= e oil out of the filter.  I replaced the filter and the same thing occurred.  Perhaps I have not cr= anked the engine long enough to move it through the filter as it was gettin= g dark and I had not yet moved the spark plugs and was concerned about dama= ging the internals and PSRU.
 
Even though I am getting flow out of the engine when cranking with the= plugs installed, I do not know how much flow it is....it is steady, but do= es not seem all that strong, but of course, the engine is only cranking and= not running.  Also, since I had no oil flow, I was concerned about cranking it without oil getting to the = engine and PSRU.  I hope to get out to the hangar later = today and continue my checks with the plugs removed.  I am not too&nbs= p;hopeful though, it seems as if it must be an internal issue, especially since the mechanical gauges I= hooked up also showed low/no pressure.
 
I agree, I do not wish to tear down the engine, as I have a lot instal= led on top of it, plus the PITA of opening the dang thing up.  However= , I have gotten pretty good and uninstalling and reinstalling...(of course,=  apparently not good enough to not have a problem).  The process has gotten much faster as I have be= come more methodical.
 
Dave mentioned some of the issues we know about with keys and retainin= g clips.  While something like that could certainly be the problem, I = am certain I addressed these very items, even though possibly n= ot well enough.  If you would have asked, I would have thought it was good, but now the evidence will tell.
 
I have removed most the hoses to check for obstructions and have yet t= o find any.  Again, the oil is coming out of the front of the engine i= n a stream but low pressure with simple starter cranking, but as of yet has= not made it past the filter, which is the first "event" in the chain.
 
Do we know of a way to determine how much oil should be flowing with s= imple cranking...such as "x" amount into a jar in "y" t= ime cranking?  Yeah, grasping at straws...but I am trying to get use t= o the idea of pulling the engine.
 
Heavy sigh.
 
Thanks,
 
Chris
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@= lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bill Brwhadburry [bbradburry@bellsouth.net]=
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Pressure Loss

Chris,

Did you just ha= ve your engine apart?  If so, did you have oil pressure after that?&nb= sp;  Oil from the pump comes out of the lower front housing and goes to the cooler.  Did you check to see if oil is comin= g from the first opening after the pump?  If it is not, the problem is= inside the engine, if oil is coming from the pump, the problem is outside = the engine. Cooler, filter, hose, etc,  don=92t tear it down unless you have to.  If you didn=92t use a mandrel when = you made up your hoses, you could have a sliver of the inside of the hose b= locking the oil flow.

&= nbsp;

Bill B

&= nbsp;

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 11:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oi= l Pressure Loss

 

Oh, and may= be this is too obvious, but when I drop the pan, what should I be looking f= or.  Yeah, large metal shards I would figure out, but if it is not that obvious, where do I need to focus.  The pr= essure gage?? The pump??  Something else??

 

Chris

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris= Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 10:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oi= l Pressure Loss

Geeesh...th= e mouse froze again.

 

To continue= , I got a moderate, steady stream of oil coming from the remote filter moun= t.  So, I had some flow.  I then went to the end of the hoses where it re-enters the engine after flowing through the t= wo oil coolers.  Well, here there was no joy.  No oil coming out.=   I did refill the filter before I reinstalled it and cranked the engi= ne for quite a while to no avail.  Next, I unhooked a few of the other hose connections past the filter and still no flow when= cranking.  Finally, I checked all the way back to the filter outlet a= nd no oil would come out.  I changed to a different filter and still n= o flow from out of the filter.  So, I have some flow....not a lot into the filter buy none out.

 

I HATE the = idea of dropping the pan (will be a real pain) to check the oil pump and pr= essure gage, but I am not quite sure as what else to check at this point.  When I return tomorrow, I will remove t= he plugs to take some of the stress off the starter and see if I get flow o= ut of the filter.   I am also concerned now that I have been cran= king the system long enough that some important parts are not running with a lot of needed oil, such as the PSRU= etc.

 

If I would = have just happened to look at the OP gauge, I would have never known there = was a problem as the engine "sounded" strong and smooth and continued to do so when I started it to test my pressure af= ter discovering the problems.

 

Hopefully t= his will be a bit more directly answered by the engine guru types on t= he list since it is not specific to Tracy's electronics.

 

Please, wha= t else should I check, I am about at the end of my testing skill set. = Also, what say ye as to what the problem "sounds" like????

 

Thanks, as = always.

 

Chris Barbe= r

Houston

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris= Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 9:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oi= l Pressure Loss

Aggg. I nee= d a new computer.  The mouse froze and the message sent prematurly.

 

Anyway, I r= echecked the wires to the EM2 and at the sensor again and all checked = fine.  Again, I started the engine, but was shut down as soon as I still saw no pressure.

 

Next, I hoo= ked up two separate mechanical pressure gages in three different locations = in the oil system, started the engine three times very briefly.  Each time the engin started and seemed to r= un fine for the VERY short time I allowed it to run.  No pressure read= ing on two of the test points, and about 6psi on the reading from the&= nbsp;turbor engine outlet to the turbo.

 

Ok, I unscr= ewed the oil filter, which is located remotely just as the oil comes out of= the front (by the pully's oposite the prop) of the engine.  I hooked up a remote start switch, climbed under the = engine and cranked the engie.....I got a moderate, steady flow of oil

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Chris= Barber [cbarber@texasattorney.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28= , 2010 9:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Oil Pr= essure Loss

In the neve= r ending tradition of two step forward and three steps back, I was working = on my RPM drop out at 6000 rmp (messed with seveal resistors to no avail).  As I was sitting on the ramp at idle fo= r a few minutes, focusing on the RPM's I glanced over at the Oil Press= ure and noted it was flashing as an alert and was showing almost NO oil pre= ssure (4 or 5 psi).  I instantly shut down the engine. 

 

The engine = appeared to be running fine before I shut it down.  I checked the wire= to the back of the engine monitor and all was fine.  I also checked the continutiy of the wire to the sensor a= nd it was good.  I started the engine again and it started fine and se= em to run fine, however, the OP did not kick in so I shut it down again

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