X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.153] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4328510 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 27 May 2010 16:12:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=72.14.220.153; envelope-from=lehanover@gmail.com Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so357344fga.7 for ; Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=p7e4wmJe/bepmIgyBquC72qFL0EeNZq0rIJl7GskzCY=; b=pAvycavpnAakyXYcBcsx3irnNthYgizIjt4S0aJ/FJO4QP2nvcg1Jx4caC0dGswh38 D49+/PdZs+A5RAUL2f6jjAojGoxz3iJL2hbJbHYLi4aNLRhPvoaDY3LGzoEyWGvUo3tj p+cqA4phtZUkap6I8YUC5GISB+phfTWMi66x8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=kPrJvNNcSOmB2sz4cw0fmtqmBwNitYsu5hZ/g6eIxLTJSvmGcdblx98tTkAoHZF+nW j6Bh988wWtkq+gSI9zlHc0v+Eh7vQL1HgPR64fM+7T+vP4TRBjCxr2IfWaZFLdoEu6NT owBS4NzfGer6AdzClaAVEQD/fUoBwtVsaD5DY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.142.211 with SMTP id h19mr976312hba.211.1274991101009; Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.239.159.209 with HTTP; Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 16:11:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: From: Lynn Hanover To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f427c8aae244048798ff54 --001485f427c8aae244048798ff54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know this must have been discussed, but perhaps more in passing or in som= e of Tracy's literature (now kinda dated, especially with some of the strides he continues to make), but what is the conventional wisdom as to rotary horsepower? I know when I first started looking into it, oh many years ago= , it seemed the impression I got was that you could pretty easily achieve 200 hp, however, that is now a bit lower. Some of the tricks to get the higher HP was mild and medium porting, bridge, "J" and "P" porting. Then there wa= s the option of turbo...the one, in combination with a medium street port, I chose. What say Ye? When started today, mine was turning about 6200 rpm at 35 MP (with a 3 lb spring in the wastegate).....it surged forward against the chocks and breaks. IVO prop full fine. Nice feel of power even if it likes to heat up fast in 90 degree weather like this. Also, I think this was discussed before too, when I go WOT my engine develops up to about 6250 rpm, but then drops a couple/few hundred rpm to usually just under 6000....sometimes just above. Thoughts? Ed, (perhaps Al)it seems you may have chimed in before. Regrettably, when I search the archives I tend to get frustrated due to thread drift. I heard a lot about porting when I was initially investigating all this and I chose to use a medium street port. I let Mazdatrix do the work. That being said, I have read all but nothing on others porting their engines (other than a LOT from PL on P ports). Since standard porting does not reportedly effect reliability, only, potentially low low idle (I can idle a= s low as about 1300 rpm when warm smoothly) why is it not discussed and/or utilized more? Just curious guys/gals. Discuss All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT James Watt came up with the Horse Power measurement in order to sell his steam engine to mine owners who used small horses to pull mine carts full o= f coal up hill on narrow gauge rail tracks. So, Horse Power is a measure of WORK. The Watt used to measure the consumption in electrical devices, is the same James Watt. So, Horse Power can be converted to, or expressed in Watts. So, one (small) horse could lift 33,000 pounds of coal 1 foot in one minute= . So, one =93Horse Power=94 is then 33,000 pounds lifted one foot in one minu= te. So you need a time (one MINUTE) a distance (one FOOT) and a FORCE to lift (33,000) pounds. A single cylinder 2 cycle diesel with a stroke of two feet (one foot lever to make calculations easy) and a piston the size of a picnic table might be able to do this at one RPM= , so, it would be a true one Horse Power engine. It would weigh maybe 7,000 pounds in cast iron. A long way to go for one HP. However through the magic of mathematics (see Ed Anderson) we can build mor= e useful engines, and just measure their effectiveness in James Watt's Horse Power. By juggling bits of formula around we can come up with one even I can figur= e out. One Horse Power is equal to Torque, a twisting (FORCE) At the end of a (ONE FOOT) lever times Revolutions per (MINUTE). Revolutions gives you the distance, because the torque is at the end of a one foot long lever, or one revolution is then on= e foot times Pi. D (the diameter of a circle with a one foot radius) or two times Pi. Or 6.26 feet. So we divide the outcome by 5252 (a constant becaus= e the little horse cheated by dragging the load up a long hill not actually lifting it. So a bit of a fudge here ) and we have all three items needed t= o replicate the output of James Watts little horse or his steam engine. Instead of steam to push our pistons or rotors about we use a vapor of gasoline in little explosions. How much vapor determines the FORCE of the explosion. So more vapor per explosion means more FORCE against the piston or rotor, and that means more torque. And tha= t means more HP. If we move the end of that one foot lever further in one MINUTE, that means more HP. (WORK) So more work can be had by increasing the TORQUE and by increasing the RPM, or both. In a supercharged or turbo charged engine we just jam in more vapor to generate higher TORQUE per REVOLUTION and we have instant success with more HP (WORK). We can increase the RPM which is the DISTANCE we push the end of that one foot long lever in one MINUTE, and again we have instant success with more HP (WORK) The best (for high HP) induction system for the rotary is the Periphery Port. The factory made rotor housings for this application, but they are ridiculously expensive, so many folks manufacture their own Periphery port housings. The object is to maintain high velocity flow, so as the RPM goes higher, an= d the time available for the vapor to flow into the passing low pressure void created by the rotor move away from TDC becomes shorter. A shorter time at any flow rate means a smaller volume per unit of time, of vapor will be inducted. Turns and other shapes impinging in an induction system cause energy to be lost. The lost energy appears as increased heat, and lower velocity. The stock or Side Port engines have a turn in the cast iron just before the vapor enters the engine. So that turn reduces velocity right where we want the highest possible velocity. In addition, the ports in a side port engine are actually closed off by the side of the passing rotor, so, for any RPM, the Periphery port engine has a massive advantage over the side port engine= , because the Periphery port is NEVER closed. Porting a side port engine is an attempt to increase the time the port is open at any RPM, so as to induct more vapor per revolution. Longer time=3Dmore vapor This increase of the port opening in three directions also reduces velocity= , so at lower RPM it reduces the amount of vapor inducted. So, ported side port engines should have reduced low RPM performance. And they do. The later closing intake port extends the closing point well past Bottom Dead Center, where the volume of the working chamber is getting smaller, an= d the pressure is going up. At low speeds part of the vapor in the chamber will be pushed back into the intake. At high speeds the mass and velocity (Over 350 miles per hour) of the intake vapor can overcome this pressure an= d more vapor will enter the chamber before the port closes. But we want best power from about 5,000 RPM on up, so for most applications the low RPM poor performance is not a factor. The STREET PORT is just an increase in open point and a delay in closing point. A typical closing point for a stock engine might be 50 degrees After Bottom Dead Center, and a in a street ported engine it might be 60 to 65 degrees ABDC. Better top end power, and some loss in low RPM power. It is called a Street Port because it is mild enough to use in a street driven auto. A big street port might move the open line so far as to un-support the trailing end of the side seal. The closing line might be moved to 70 degrees ABDC. Much improved top end power. Obvious loss in low RPM power. A small Bridge Port might be of some value in aircraft use if kept above 5,500 RPM. A =93J=94 bridge port would be of no value in aircraft use, because it has = no power below 5,000 RPM And without a controllable pitch prop, might not even be able to pull a pro= p load into a usable RPM. Converting Horse Power into thrust with a propeller is best explained by Mr= . Anderson. However I have some thoughts. When reved up from idle the prop is facing a mass of air that is barely moving, so the fixed pitch propellers effective pitch is close to advertised. The prop tips may be slightly stalled. As the mass of air in front of the propeller starts to move through the propeller, the effective pitch Or, the pitch relative to the moving air mass is reduced, and that un-stall= s the tips, and that allows the tips or outer part of the prop disc to become more effective at moving air and that is WORK, and the added work load slow= s the engine slightly. As the aircraft accelerates, the effective pitch relative to the air stream is reduced, and this unloads the engine slightly, and the engine RPM increases slightly. Once propeller thrust is equal to total drag engine RPM will remain constant. You can only go faster if you increase RPM in order to increase thrust. Or, increase relative pitch to increase thrust. Or, both. Advertised pitch, is that blade angle relative to the center-line of the crank shaft. Effective pitch is the angle of the blade relative to the blade,s path through the airstream. Propeller blades and wings are the same thing. So, they both operate in relative wind. Thus the controllable pitch propeller is the gold standard and allows the engine to be used at its best power RPM for any airspeed. The fixed pitch propeller is limited to a small range of RPM, that only suits the engine's best power in one place along that RPM range. The same as driving your car all day in 2nd gear (for a fixed pitch prop) compared to driving all day with an automatic transmission that keeps changing ratios based on load and throttle setting. (For a variable speed, or controllable pitch propeller). Thrust (FORCE) from the propeller (MASS times VELOCITY) is the WORK done by the engine. Or, I could be completely wrong. Lynn E. Hanover --001485f427c8aae244048798ff54 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I know this must have been discussed, but perhaps more in passing or i= n some of Tracy's literature (now=A0kinda dated, especial= ly with some of the strides he continues to make), but what is the conventi= onal wisdom as to rotary horsepower?=A0 I know when I first started looking= into it, oh many years ago, it seemed the impression I got was that you co= uld pretty easily achieve 200 hp, however, that is now a bit lower.=A0 Some= of the tricks to get the higher HP was mild and medium porting, bridge, &q= uot;J" and "P" porting.=A0 Then there was the option of turb= o...the one, in combination with a medium street port, I chose.
=A0
What say Ye?
=A0
When started today, mine was turning about 6200 rpm at 35 MP (with a 3= lb spring in the wastegate).....it surged forward against th= e chocks and breaks.=A0=A0IVO prop full fine. Nice feel of po= wer even if it likes to heat up fast in 90 degree weather like this.
=A0
Also, I think this was discussed before too, when I go=A0WOT= my engine=A0develops up to about 6250 rpm, but then drops a cou= ple/few hundred rpm to usually just under 6000....sometimes just above.=A0 = Thoughts?=A0 Ed, (perhaps Al)it seems you may have chimed in before.=A0 Reg= rettably, when I search the=A0archives I tend to get frustrat= ed due to thread drift.
=A0
I heard a lot about porting when I was initially investigating all thi= s and I chose to use a medium street port.=A0 I let=A0Mazdatrix do the work.=A0 That being said, I have read all but nothing on others p= orting their engines (other than a LOT from PL on P ports).=A0 Since standa= rd porting does not reportedly effect reliability, only, potentially low=A0= low idle (I can idle as low as about 1300 rpm when warm smoot= hly) why is it not discussed and/or utilized more?
=A0
Just curious guys/gals.=A0 Discuss <g>
=A0
All the best,
=A0
Chris Barber
Houston, GSOT
=A0
=A0
=A0=20

James Watt came up with the Horse Power mea= surement in order to sell his steam engine to mine owners who used small ho= rses to pull mine carts full of coal up hill on narrow gauge rail tracks.


So, Horse Power is a measure of WORK.


The Watt used to measure the consumption in= electrical devices, is the same James Watt.


So, Horse Power can be converted to, or exp= ressed in Watts.


So, one (small) horse could lift 33,000 pou= nds of coal 1 foot in one minute.


So, one =93Horse Power=94 is then 33,000 po= unds lifted one foot in one minute.


So you need a time (one MINUTE) a distance = (one FOOT) and a FORCE to lift (33,000) pounds.


A single cylinder 2 cycle diesel with a str= oke of two feet (one foot lever to make calculations easy)


and a piston the size of a picnic table mig= ht be able to do this at one RPM, so, it would be a true


one Horse Power engine. It would weigh mayb= e 7,000 pounds in cast iron. A long way to go for one HP.


However through the magic of mathematics (s= ee Ed Anderson) we can build more useful engines, and just measure their ef= fectiveness in James Watt's Horse Power.


By juggling bits of formula around we can c= ome up with one even I can figure out.


One Horse Power is equal to Torque, a twist= ing (FORCE) At the end of a (ONE FOOT) lever times


Revolutions per (MINUTE). Revolutions gives= you the distance, because the torque is at the end of a one foot long leve= r, or one revolution is then one foot times Pi. D (the diameter of a circle= with a one foot radius) or two times Pi. Or 6.26 feet. So we divide the ou= tcome by 5252 (a constant because the little horse cheated by dragging the = load up a long hill not actually lifting it. So a bit of a fudge here ) and= we have all three items needed to replicate the output of James Watts litt= le horse or his steam engine.


Instead of steam to push our pistons or rot= ors about we use a vapor of gasoline in little explosions.


How much vapor determines the FORCE of the = explosion. So more vapor per explosion means


more FORCE against the piston or rotor, and= that means more torque. And that means more HP.


If we move the end of that one foot lever f= urther in one MINUTE, that means more HP. (WORK)


So more work can be had by increasing the T= ORQUE and by increasing the RPM, or both.


In a supercharged or turbo charged engine w= e just jam in more vapor to generate higher TORQUE per REVOLUTION and we ha= ve instant success with more HP (WORK).


We can increase the RPM which is the DISTAN= CE we push the end of that one foot long lever in one

MINUTE, and again we have instant success w= ith more HP (WORK)



The best (for high HP) induction system for= the rotary is the Periphery Port.


The factory made rotor housings for this ap= plication, but they are ridiculously expensive, so many folks manufacture t= heir own Periphery port housings.


The object is to maintain high velocity flo= w, so as the RPM goes higher, and the time available for the

vapor to flow into the passing low pressure= void created by the rotor move away from TDC becomes shorter.


A shorter time at any flow rate means a sma= ller volume per unit of time, of vapor will be inducted.


Turns and other shapes impinging in an indu= ction system cause energy to be lost. The lost energy appears as increased = heat, and lower velocity. The stock or Side Port engines have a turn in the= cast iron just before the vapor enters the engine. So that turn reduces ve= locity right where we want the highest possible velocity. In addition, the = ports in a side port engine are actually closed off by the side of the pass= ing rotor, so, for any RPM, the Periphery port engine has a massive advanta= ge over the side port engine, because the Periphery port is NEVER closed.


Porting a side port engine is an attempt to= increase the time the port is open at any RPM, so as to induct

more vapor per revolution. Longer time=3Dmo= re vapor


This increase of the port opening in three = directions also reduces velocity, so at lower RPM it reduces the amount of = vapor inducted. So, ported side port engines should have reduced low RPM pe= rformance.


And they do.


The later closing intake port extends the c= losing point well past Bottom Dead Center, where the volume of the working = chamber is getting smaller, and the pressure is going up. At low speeds par= t of the vapor in the chamber will be pushed back into the intake. At high = speeds the mass and velocity (Over 350 miles per hour) of the intake vapor = can overcome this pressure and more vapor will enter the chamber before the= port closes.


But we want best power from about 5,000 RPM= on up, so for most applications the low RPM poor performance is not a fact= or.


The STREET PORT is just an increase in open= point and a delay in closing point. A typical closing point for a stock en= gine might be 50 degrees After Bottom Dead Center, and a in a street ported= engine it might be 60 to 65 degrees ABDC. Better top end power, and some l= oss in low RPM power. It is called a Street Port because it is mild enough = to use in a street driven auto.


A big street port might move the open line = so far as to un-support the trailing end of the side seal.

The closing line might be moved to 70 degre= es ABDC.


Much improved top end power. Obvious loss i= n low RPM power.


A small Bridge Port might be of some value = in aircraft use if kept above 5,500 RPM.


A =93J=94 bridge port would be of no value = in aircraft use, because it has no power below 5,000 RPM


And without a controllable pitch prop, migh= t not even be able to pull a prop load into a usable RPM.



Converting Horse Power into thrust with a p= ropeller is best explained by Mr. Anderson.


However I have some thoughts.


When reved up from idle the prop is facing = a mass of air that is barely moving, so the fixed pitch propellers effectiv= e pitch is close to advertised. The prop tips may be slightly stalled.


As the mass of air in front of the propelle= r starts to move through the propeller, the effective pitch

Or, the pitch relative to the moving air ma= ss is reduced, and that un-stalls the tips, and that allows the tips or out= er part of the prop disc to become more effective at moving air and that is= WORK, and the added work load slows the engine slightly.


As the aircraft accelerates, the effective = pitch relative to the air stream is reduced, and this unloads the engine sl= ightly, and the engine RPM increases slightly. Once propeller thrust is equ= al to total drag

engine RPM will remain constant.


You can only go faster if you increase RPM = in order to increase thrust. Or, increase relative pitch to increase thrust= . Or, both.


Advertised pitch, is that blade angle relat= ive to the center-line of the crank shaft. Effective pitch is the angle of = the blade relative to the blade,s path through the airstream.


Propeller blades and wings are the same thi= ng. So, they both operate in relative wind.


Thus the controllable pitch propeller is th= e gold standard and allows the engine to be used at its best power RPM for = any airspeed.


The fixed pitch propeller is limited to a s= mall range of RPM, that only suits the engine's best power in one place= along that RPM range.


The same as driving your car all day in 2nd gear (for a fixed pitch prop) compared to driving all day with = an automatic transmission that keeps changing ratios based on load and thro= ttle setting. (For a variable speed, or controllable pitch propeller).


Thrust (FORCE) from the propeller (MASS tim= es VELOCITY) is the WORK done by the engine.


Or, I could be completely wrong.


Lynn E. Hanover


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